The Rapture discussion........

Last and finale result of the refinement by fire the Lord has done for me. And yes it is saying only 288,000 souls will make it through the end of the age Tribulation. Thank for your patients. Development brings forth full delivery always. God Bless!

A FORUM MEMBER SAID:Some pastors say yes the Holy Spirit will leave the earth after the Rapture of the Church. I believe the Holy Spirit will not leave. Why? Because the bible teaches us that people will be saved after the Rapture of the Church and during "The Great Tribulation."[/QUOTE]
They obviously believe in a pretrib rapture and some a midtrib rapture.

MY RESPONSE:

Most correctly is..... those who have the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit will be taken up. The word rapture is no where in scripture but a snatching/ or caught up is. This is at the end of the Tribulation, at the Last trumpet which is the return of Christ to gather unto Himself His own, and carry out His Justice- COMPLETE ANNIHILATION of His enemies and the purging by fire- the earth which makes room for the new earth.
Where, O Death, is Your Victory?1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…

This is a spontaneous death and resurrection designated for those chosen and Elect who are not to be martyred. But first our martyred brethren will rise. The portion who are not martyred are those who are chosen to teach (THE SHEPHERDESS PORTION) and are the 144, 000 of Rev.14. The other group who will be martyred is the 144,000 Rev.7. Moral of the story these are the FIRST RESURRECTION first fruits unto God and the rest of the souls who are not part of the thousand year reign with Christ are the second. The first have authority over the second.
So out of 7.6 billion people on the planet today, only 288, 000 will be the chosen Elect end time Bride. The Rev.7 portion are sealed through the Rachel portion. They are those who convert to Christianity through(The Shepherdess portion of the Church) and though part of the Bride they are only so through being the Brides offspring Rev12:17 . They will be martyred. They are like Christ in that fact, the Bride-like Mother Mary. Those who have died prior to this end of the age church who are Christians but not martyred, are part of the second resurrection. We the last generation- " The first shall be last and the Last shall be of the first fruits".
The Return of the Lord 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
…15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

Here it speaks of those whom we see martyred during the end of the age Beast System and those who were martyred by the same evil system throughout history. For they too were martyred by a beast system of prior times. My point: it is clear in Rev.20 there are two Resurrections.
If those who do not fall asleep to the earth but are instantly transformed arise with those who were martyred, then they are part of the first Resurrection too because they are caught up with those who were martyred( DURING THIS BEAST SYSTEM ERA) . The Rev. is geared to an end time Elect. Two groups are present in Rev.20 , those given authority to judge (Seated on Thrones) and those who were beheaded for their testimony of Christ. That does not mean that souls who were martyred in prior Christian history are not part of the first resurrection.

The portion of the elect meant to be snatched up - their lives are only touched by the hand of God, not man. This is regarding the snatching or being caught up- today the word ( Rapture ) is applied. This has never happened to a Large group of people.Those Christians who have fallen asleep, (only the martyred souls from past Christian history) will be of the first resurrection. The apostles are part of the first resurrection ex..... . St . Paul clearly states those who have fallen asleep are clearly caught up first then us who are alive and remain, but they are the martyred ones only or else there would be only need for one resurrection not two and their would be no such thing as FIRST FRUITS.

For the End Time portion of today This is what Revelation is speaking of.
Rev20: 4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge (FIRST GROUP REV14). And (And denotes an including and also) I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands( SECOND GROUP REV.7). And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

PROOF OF TWO PART RESURRECTION OF TWO GROUPS:
Satan Bound Rev.20:5-7
…5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev21.A New Heaven and a New Earth
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, (thousand year reign with Yeshua (Jesus) )
and He will live with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”

REV. 20 CONTINUED: 7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,…

There is no pretrib or midtrib rapture only an end of the tribulation, HENCE LAST TRUMPET. God Bless!

I understand the caught up at the end of the tribulation, but everything else is confusing.

They obviously believe in a pretrib rapture and some a midtrib rapture.

MY RESPONSE:

Most correctly is..... those who have the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit will be taken up. The word rapture is no where in scripture but a snatching/ or caught up is. This is at the end of the Tribulation, at the Last trumpet which is the return of Christ to gather unto Himself His own, and carry out His Justice- COMPLETE ANNIHILATION of His enemies and the purging by fire- the earth which makes room for the new earth.
Where, O Death, is Your Victory?1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…

This is a spontaneous death and resurrection designated for those chosen and Elect who are not to be martyred. But first our martyred brethren will rise. The portion who are not martyred are those who are chosen to teach (THE SHEPHERDESS PORTION) and are the 144, 000 of Rev.14. The other group who will be martyred is the 144,000 Rev.7. Moral of the story these are the FIRST RESURRECTION first fruits unto God and the rest of the souls who are not part of the thousand year reign with Christ are the second. The first have authority over the second.
So out of 7.6 billion people on the planet today, only 288, 000 will be the chosen Elect end time Bride. The Rev.7 portion are sealed through the Rachel portion. They are those who convert to Christianity through(The Shepherdess portion of the Church) and though part of the Bride they are only so through being the Brides offspring Rev12:17 . They will be martyred. They are like Christ in that fact, the Bride-like Mother Mary. Those who have died prior to this end of the age church who are Christians but not martyred, are part of the second resurrection. We the last generation- " The first shall be last and the Last shall be of the first fruits".
The Return of the Lord 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
…15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord......"



Not only is there no verse stating a post trib rapture,it is not even alluded to.

No? There are none more misled on the gathering than a pretribulationist...

Immediately after the tribulation of those days...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now go ahead and show us all again the pre-trib fabrications that pervert Jesus' words.

Please answer me this absolutely since you brought up 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. When we meet the Lord in the or caught up together with Him do we go back to heaven or do we continue on and land on the earth?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Instead of throwing out insults, why don't you compare Matthew 24 with 1 Thess 4 and see that they are alluding to TWO VERY DIFFERENT EVENTS at different times. And please take the time to study the matter before responding, otherwise you may just embarrass yourself.

I've studied the matter more than you think. I know how pre-tribbers study the rapture. They read what other misled pre-tribbers like MacArthur, Ice, Walvoord, Lindsey, Hindson, and a host of others who write about it. They've made millions deceiving people. Why don't you take the words of Jesus and Paul at face value!
I have nothing good to say about pre-trib. It's deceitful, it's fabricated, it's contradictory.

Just because I said pre-tribbers are misled doesn't mean the truth is an insult.

Jesus said he would gather his Christians after the tribulation. I believe him. Pre-tribbers have perverted his words and deceived millions and I don't like it. Pre-trib has to be a bad spirit of sorts. Paul in 1 Thes. 4 says the gathering happens at the Parousia. Do you realize how many things pre-tribbers had to pervert to change the true meaning of Mathew 24:29-31 and 1 Thes. 4: 15-17? It's crazy!

I believe the rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Where we differ in belief is where i have bolded and underlined your statement..

If you read the very chapter Revelation 20 You will see there is a 1000 year time period between the return of the LORD Jesus Christ and the time when God will establish the New Heaven and New earth.. During that time the Saints will rule the world with Jesus.. It is at the end of the 1000 Years that God will bring down fire upon the earth to destroy those who follow the released satan ( who's chains where loosened from the pit) So Jesus will carry out great wrath.. But it will not include the extermination of all humanity and the establishment of the New Earth and New Heaven.. This happens 1000 years later..

Revelation 20: KJV
7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

satan will not be decieving the resurected Saints who have been ruling with Jesus for 1000 years.. satan will deceive those of the nations ( normal human beings) who will be descendants of the people that survived the wrath of the day of the LORD when Jesus returned 1000 years before..

You have posted verses supporting my view.
Re read those verses.
Angels gather,not Jesus. ( not the rapture...can't be)
They are gathered FROM HEAVEN.
You are correct in that Jesus returns after the trib. We agree.
But you have absolutely no evidence or verses indicating a post trib rapture.
Zero my friend
Nada

Re read.
You are welcome

Your position is easy to refute.
Test fit, then take a position

No immediate u turn. Just a return AFTER TRIB
TEST FIT

Why is it so hard for you to give a simple "cogent" answer like a "yes or no?" And your telling us how easy we can be refuted, horse hockey!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Even your answer here to dud is ridiculous. You state that Jesus returns after the trib and you actually agree with it. Then you made this statement,
"But you have absolutely no evidence or verses indicating a post trib rapture.
Zero my friend." News flash, there is no post trib rapture, there is only the second coming after the tribulation. The only rapture I see is you having your head in the clouds!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Only if you ignore the simple fact that Christ must first come FOR HIS SAINTS in order to ensure that the Marriage of the Lamb is an accomplished fact before He comes WITH HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS at the Second Coming.

The Tribulation and Great Tribulation take place in the interim. Read and study Revelation 19 and ask yourself how the Marriage of the Lamb to His Bride (the Church) can be possible other than having the pre-tribulation Rapture take place first? Simple logic my friend, fully supported by Scripture.

Ok nehemiah, where before 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 does the so-called rapture happen?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I would say your best clue is rev 14.
You are not willing to include it.
So you keep marching around your same concepts. My position includes many verses besides yours.
I am showing you IRREFUTABLY there is no postrib rapture.

The firstfruits rapture was directly after Jesus' resurrection ....a few days.
It also was/is pretrib.
Main harvest is next....the gathering of the bride.

By virtue of "firstfruits" the other 4 parts of harvest are a given.
If " harvest" is ignored, if bride and groom are ignored, and so on, i would probably go for some other position?

Not sure what you mean, but you could start with John 14:1-3 and work your way to Revelation.