OSAS= House Built on Sand

I have no desire to explain them away. I do believe the verses can be understood outside of a Calvinistic lens.

That is up to you to search out if you are interested, I have already done so since I walked away from McArthur and his band of brothers and their post modern approach to Calvinism many years ago.

Thinking "one has been chosen" to me is something to boast about.

Romans 10:13, “For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN” (Titus 2:11).

I fully understand your position Roger. I simply don't agree with it for the reasons I stated. It doesn't mean I don't consider you a brother in the Lord.

I am not willing to dismiss the volumes of Scripture that says God chose us, not the other way around. I know I never would have chose Him. How could I have? I was Spiritually dead. And Scripture unequivocally says that the natural man, who doesn't have the Holy Spirit, that is spiritually dead, can even understand the Word. And I've heard many times the explanation given for this passage that IMO merely explains away what is clearly written. I just don't believe it. I KNOW He chose me.

I believe this not only because of the great volume of Scripture supporting it, but experientially as well.

Shepherd not shepherds my friend.

I'm certainly going to sleep better tonight knowing that you consider me a Christian. Well not really as I'm quite certain the you understand that my salvation is attested to by the Holy Spirit dwelling in me.

I'm not dismissing the scripture either but I have what I believe to be a biblically correct perspective of those scriptures. Even though the natural man is described as dead to the things of the Spirit John says that God has placed light in every man that comes into the world. John chapter 1. Jesus is the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Spiritually dead is not exactly the same as physically dead.

Of course God chose you but He chose you in Christ not before you were in Christ. You are making your position in Christ to be the causation which is incorrect. This is why I say that modern Calvinism overstates it's case and renders itself against the gospel.

If God did not love sinners He would not have given His only begotten Son to make atonement for mans sin at the expense of His very life blood.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What does lost mean to you based on The words Jesus used in Luke 15?


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance


Does lost mean a sinner in need of repentance or does it mean “just”?


Do the lost need to be saved ?




JPT

I know you believe that. That's why I said you were only capable of understanding the passages you use to defend once saved always saved according to your own personal beliefs about them and aren't aware that there is another way to understand them which strips them of any once saved always saved meaning, yet does not make those passages untrue.



I know you don't want to hear this but actually the very opposite is true. You have to adopt this 'not really' attitude about scripture to make once saved always saved true. What I mean is various passages have to 'not really' mean what they say for once saved always saved to be true. Give me a few of your favorite once saved always saved passages and I'll show you.



No, faith is at the center of Biblical not-once saved always saved. It's all about God's free gift of faith. Just because man then has to place his trust in what God shows mankind, through faith, to be true about his Son doesn't make it a man centered works gospel. Who told you trusting in Christ is the man centered works gospel condemned in scripture? Keeping the law to earn salvation is the works gospel condemned in scripture. How did trusting in Christ get mixed up in that in the church????



I'm glad there are denominations. I need to know who believes what so I can stay away from them if they believe dangerous doctrines or demonstrate by what they believe, and in turn do, that they do not have the Spirit of revelation operating among them. I won't give examples in the interest of not shutting people down from listening to me out of offense.



Only stick to what your pastor teaches you that lines up with what you yourself can confirm in your own personal Bible reading. The crux of this problem with once saved always saved and other doctrines is most Christians do not read the Bible. They depend on the smattering of scripture that the pastor reads on Sunday morning to make his point. And that is the extent of their Bible knowledge.


I see it too. It comes from going with the first thing you hear that sounds acceptable to you and not having a time of personal Bible reading time. The true, learning, growing Christian will have a pattern of growth and change in both his doctrine and his behavior. The indoctrinated Christians who doesn't study thing out for himself and just goes with the first acceptable thing he hears is the one who is stuck in the narrow view of scripture and won't budge.

I would ask that you stop trying to put me in some neatly labeled box, that you can store away and bring out from time to time to dismiss Scripture you interpret differently than me.

I know almost nothing about John Calvin, WAAAY less about McArthur, and nothing about his band of brothers or post modern Calvinism. I do have a decent grasp of the Scriptures. Amazing how the more I think I know, the more I realize I have barely scratched the surface.

I could, or would NEVER boast about the Lord choosing to save me! Quite the opposite. Once again, that seems to me to be the human intellect and mind attempting to explain Almighty God's Will and purposes. I'm sorry you don't see it the way I see it. I still consider you my sister in Christ. We'll find out soon enough who has it more right. Of course, by then, it won't matter a speck!

I do not believe God gave me faith, or regenerated me prior to my conversion, I do believe He removed the veil that held my eyes as He will do for anyone who earnestly seeks Him.

What about the billion Muslims that think their Mohammad laid out the path to salvation? What about these billions of Catholics that think they are saved? Are you going to witness to them and give them their chance to serve Jesus? Will they believe you? What about Hindus? Buddhas?

How are they to start looking for God when they think they have already found Him? I do not believe that everyone earnestly seeking God will find Him. Let's quit arguing over the lesser points of how to serve God and start studying scripture on God's salvation plan. Keep the following scripture in mind:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

People from all religions have and do leave what they were raised in and become born again believers.

I was Catholic, but I am not sure where you disagree?

Does God love the Muslims, Catholics, Hindus and Buddhas View attachment 186843

Alrighty then. Be Blessed.

Of course He does but that does not mean they are saved yet.

So what is God's plan for them View attachment 186845

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Okay, who will get them to read that verse so they will know that View attachment 186847

What is your point Deade? God is more than able to reveal Himself to those who are searching for truth.

If He loves them, why does He not make it plain how to serve Him? What plan does the scripture say He has for them? It is written.

In the church at Sardis was a group of people who were obviously not genuine believers. Even though this church had a reputation of being alive, Jesus wasn’t fooled. “You are dead. Wake up!”
This church may have had a good reputation, but they were spiritually lifeless. In other words, the church was filled with unsaved people going through the motions of religion. There were many tares among the wheat (Matthew 13:24-30). To “wake up” in their case means to start paying attention to their need of salvation, to stop being careless about their heart’s condition before God.

Are you surprised to learn that there are unbelievers who attend church with believers? Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian. There are those who call Jesus Lord that prophesy, cast out demons and perform many "alleged" wonderful works who are not genuine believers. Christ NEVER knew them (Matthew 7:21-23). It’s not about attending church or or being a make believer that counts, it’s whether you have repented and placed your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation that ultimately counts (Acts 3:19; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 26:18).

In many of the letters to the New Testament churches there are sections that pertain to unbelievers or that warn the saints about the influence of unbelievers among them. The letter to the church at Sardis is no exception. How do we know for sure there were some unbelievers in the church at Sardis? Because Jesus said they were dead and in danger of judgment. Jesus warned the Sardisians, “if you don’t wake up, I will come like a thief.” Yet the church at Sardis wasn’t a completely lost cause for among the sinners were a “few” saints. We know this because Jesus clearly distinguishes a second group within the church who had not “soiled their clothes” and who were considered “worthy.” How do we soil our clothes? By being clothed in our own filthy rags of righteous (Isaiah 64:6). What makes a person worthy in God’s eyes? Being clothed with Christ and his righteousness (Is 61:10; Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9).

How about a little context. Ephesians 5:11 - Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. 14 This is why it is said:

“Wake up, sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

Reminds me of what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 4:3 - But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

In this case here, believers have an exhortation to wake up from spiritual slumber and put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. Believers need to make the best use of their time to do just what we have been called to do. Nothing is mentioned here in Romans 13:11 about them being dead or their deeds being unfinished in the sight of my God or to repent or a warning to wake up or Jesus will come like a thief, and they will not know at what time He will come to them.

Reminds me of Luke 22:45 - When He rose from prayer, He came to the disciples and found them sleeping from sorrow, 46 and said to them, “Why are you sleeping? Get up and pray that you may not enter into temptation.” The disciples need to wake up and pray, but that does not mean they were lost.

In Romans 13:12, we read - "The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand. Let us therefore lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light." Now the term "night" here refers metaphorically to spiritual darkness and moral darkness. We live in a time of the night when the prince of the power of the air, the prince of darkness, controls this world. Children of light live in a time when darkness is all around us.

In Revelation 3:5, we read - "He who overcomes I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. *All genuine believers are "overcomers!"

Some people see in Revelation 3:5 the picture of God’s pen poised, ready to strike out the name of any Christian at any given moment. They read into it like this: "If you mess up and don’t win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life!”

The one who “overcomes” is anyone who is born again (1 John 5:4). The overcomer will receive a white garment (a token of righteousness), he will never have his name removed from the book of life (which is a promise of eternal security). Praise God!

That's called 'faith'. God shows them the truth of the gospel. From there that person must then place their trust in the gospel they have been shown is true in order to be saved. Simply knowing by faith that the gospel is true never saved anybody and it never will.

God gives the ability, the faith, to know the gospel is true. We then respond with our trust. That's not us saving ourselves by our own works. Trusting Christ is not among the works that Paul says can not justify/save. There is no boast in that and God gets all the glory because we can't know and understand and trust in the gospel until he gives the gift of faith to even know it's true in the first place. Without that nothing happens. That's why it's to his glory and praise, not ours.

I can't really find any fault with this post Ralph.