OSAS= House Built on Sand

Depends if he falls off a cliff or gets eaten by a wolf before he is found.

Hence, the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Actually, all your "twisting and explaining away" will not change the fact that the parables of Luke 15 were spoken to the pharisees and scribes to reprove and rebuke them for their behavior (even though you seem to think Jesus needed to speak in parables to let everyone know the sinner needs to repent. ).

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

At the same time Jesus told the pharisees and scribes the parables of Luke 15, He also told them about the rich man and Lazarus:

Luke 16:

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


So what's the point of telling the pharisees about the rich man and Lazarus?

We must be careful that we do not follow the example of the pharisees and scribes. They had an outward appearance of following the word of God (needed no repentance), but inwardly they resisted God's Word and, through their resistance, denied it.

Hi JPT,

Think again the sheep were in the wilderness as the the Jesus said and they were not in a green pasture land. Notice in Psalms 23 where in the context that the sheep is own by the Shepherd that it says, he laid them in the green pasture but not with this one. The sheep in the context were all sinners, the lost one which represents the repentant sinner saved after he was found and the self righteous Pharisees who do not need repentance. Any problem over there? Just because, the word "sheep" was used by the Lord that it means they are already saved? Umm we have such a word as pastor, priest, bishop, prophet/s etc but they can be both apply to the true and the false, the saved and the unsaved. In the context if you may I suggest to re-read verses 1-3.

Psalms 23
1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

Since you've kind of gone round and round with so many on this, it might be helpful for you to tell us what "lost" means to you for the born again Child of God.

Remember, we're talking about a saved Child of God, NOT someone who has never been saved to begin with.

If only posted what lost means 25 times in this thread.


Here it is again.


Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.


Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.




JPT

You have said that before. Ad nauseum. But you have not made it clear that you were talking about one who was saved. One who was born again. One who is a Child of God.

I'm asking what "lost" looks like to you? What does a Child of God do, or doesn't do, that separates him from God?

Disobeys His commandments.

Sins against his brother without repenting.

Remains in sin.


Jesus gives the example in Matthew’s version of the parable of the lost sheep.


Jesus explains that God desires no one to be lost, but for us to forgive and be forgiven.


This is how sin is to be dealt with, repent and be forgiven.

If a brother sins against us we are to confront the person so they can know they have sinned, and if they repent we are to forgive them, as God has forgiven us.


This is all laid in Matthew 18.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


Then Peter asks -


Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


The Jesus tells the parable of the unforgiving servant.


Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And
his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:32-35

• “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

It’s plain to see that if we do not forgive, our sins which were at one time forgiven, will be reinstated back to us and we will have to pay the full penalty for them.



JPT

maybe you should get off your religious high horse and receive some correction about your bogus " theology ".

Disobeys His commandments.

Sins against his brother without repenting.

Remains in sin.


Jesus gives the example in Matthew’s version of the parable of the lost sheep.


Jesus explains that God desires no one to be lost, but for us to forgive and be forgiven.


This is how sin is to be dealt with, repent and be forgiven.

If a brother sins against us we are to confront the person so they can know they have sinned, and if they repent we are to forgive them, as God has forgiven us.


This is all laid in Matthew 18.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


Then Peter asks -


Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


The Jesus tells the parable of the unforgiving servant.


Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And
his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:32-35

• “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

It’s plain to see that if we do not forgive, our sins which were at one time forgiven, will be reinstated back to us and we will have to pay the full penalty for them.



JPT

Hi JPT,
When I was new in the faith, I am told to have a Bible Study at my own and suggested to use the basic method which considers the ff:

• To whom the passage is talking about?
• Who is being spoken to the passage?
• What do the particular word/phrase represents?
• Where it did happen? etc…etc…

First thing first, what you have brought was not the entire passage and look it was started in verse 4 where it doesn’t mentioned the very basic information we need to understand the parable. Then it being quoted only an incomplete 2 verses heard in Jesus lips to focus the attention. Nevertheless, seems to me that yours leads to an eisigesis and not it exegesis. Now let me quote in the entire passage to be able to understand fully the context and apply basics in studying the scriptures.


Luke 15:1-7
1Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

• Who is speaking? No doubt it’s Christ.
• To whom Christ is speaking about this parable? Well, verse 3, says “unto them”
• Who are these “unto them”? They were the publicans (tax collectors) and sinners (outcast) but the Pharisees (self-righteous) and the scribes were also there.
• What does the one (1) sheep described and represents? According to Jesus, this sheep was lost but it was found and this represent the “sinner that repenteth.”
• What does the ninety and nine (99) described and represents? They were in the wilderness and they were persons which need no repentance perhaps they were the Pharisees who are self-righteous. Actually in the bible, Jesus addressed the Pharisees as righteous..
• So, your question seems to be tricky but actually is very simple and it can be answered right away. The lost sheep which represent the sinner that repented therefore is saved.
• Are the ninety and nine saved? No. Take note however, that these sheep altogether 1+99 =100 were both in the wilderness. They were not in the green pasture.

Tired yet?

Ok. So you believe a lost sheep is saved.


In your understanding there was s no difference in a sheep who is lost and one who is found, so why does anyone need to go after a sheep that is lost?



JPT

so, in other words, a real true Christian will not sin.

so, see here we have it folks, sinless perfectionism. a total lie. no one is sinless. not you, not me, no one.

maybe you should get off your religious high horse and receive some correction about your bogus " theology ".

Jesus explains that God desires no one to be lost, but for us to forgive and be forgiven.


This is how sin is to be dealt with, repent and be forgiven.

If a brother sins against us we are to confront the person so they can know they have sinned, and if they repent we are to forgive them, as God has forgiven us.

Hi JPT,
When I was new in the faith, I am told to have a Bible Study at my own and suggested to use the basic method which considers the ff:

• To whom the passage is talking about?
• Who is being spoken to the passage?
• What do the particular word/phrase represents?
• Where it did happen? etc…etc…

First thing first, what you have brought was not the entire passage and look it was started in verse 4 where it doesn’t mentioned the very basic information we need to understand the parable. Then it being quoted only an incomplete 2 verses heard in Jesus lips to focus the attention. Nevertheless, seems to me that yours leads to an eisigesis and not it exegesis. Now let me quote in the entire passage to be able to understand fully the context and apply basics in studying the scriptures.


Luke 15:1-7
1Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

• Who is speaking? No doubt it’s Christ.
• To whom Christ is speaking about this parable? Well, verse 3, says “unto them”
• Who are these “unto them”? They were the publicans (tax collectors) and sinners (outcast) but the Pharisees (self-righteous) and the scribes were also there.
• What does the one (1) sheep described and represents? According to Jesus, this sheep was lost but it was found and this represent the “sinner that repenteth.”
• What does the ninety and nine (99) described and represents? They were in the wilderness and they were persons which need no repentance perhaps they were the Pharisees who are self-righteous. Actually in the bible, Jesus addressed the Pharisees as righteous..
• So, your question seems to be tricky but actually is very simple and it can be answered right away. The lost sheep which represent the sinner that repented therefore is saved.
• Are the ninety and nine saved? No. Take note however, that these sheep altogether 1+99 =100 were both in the wilderness. They were not in the green pasture.

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own;God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil,and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Please point out where I insinuated "sinless perfectionism" in the following phrases -









You will have to do better than make up lies about what I said.




JPT

So as to avoid confusion, let's remember that we are talking about ALREADY saved Children of God. NOT those that have NEVER been born again.

I like what Dan says a lot. There are prescriptive passages of Scripture, meaning we should do X , and there are DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture, meaning they describe what a born again Child of God will do, and what he won't do. If we understand this principle, we can avoid virtually ALL these disputes.

First off, are you saying that certain types of sin separate us from God resulting in Salvation loss, or any and ALL sin separates us?

I want to make sure I'm not dealing with a sinless perfectionist here. If so, I can just move on, because I believe that person is totally deluded.

So I think you're saying a Child of God is separated from Him and subsequently loses his Salvation that God gave him, if he has sin that he hasn't turned from.

So many problems with this view! This doctrine says a person is a saved born again Child of God, then is lost, and NO LONGER a born again Child of God, then if he repents he becomes a RE-BORN AGAIN CHILD OF GOD! How many times can he become born again?

So a sin that isn't repented of results in Eternal separation from God. (I believe the Father will do whatever is necessary to have His Kids repent). But in YOUR view a sin that isn't repented of results in Eternal separation from God. This is the EXACT opposite of what Scripture teaches can separate a Child of God! Which is NOTHING!!!!

Romans 8:38-39 New International Version (NIV)
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor ANYTHING else in all creation,(ARE YOU IN CREATION!?) will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Did you know that's what the 'hyper' means in Hypergrace. Supposedly, grace hyper-extends to the point that it will save an ex-believer who doesn't want to be forgiven anymore into a kingdom and an inheritance and a salvation he doesn't want anymore. Ten years ago you would have been laughed at for suggesting such a thing. Now almost everyone I talk to who believes in 'once saved always saved' believes in this horrible distortion of God's grace. It used to be believed by 'once saved always saved' people that if you fell away you aren't saved and were never really saved to begin with.