Doctrine of Immutability (Eternal Security)

Sir, with all due respect, you haven't got an idea of what my Christian life was like. Not only did I believe with all of my being that Jesus had conquered death and payed the ultimate price for my sins, but that I also was his child. I was the child of God, bought by the blood of his son. I knew I was saved, and I knew that I was a new creature in Christ. I took this knowledge of truth and I couldn't resist telling everyone of the good news. I felt as if I was different. I felt as if I had been made a new creature. The more I learned about Jesus and God, the more I fell in love with him. There was no doubt in my mind as to the validity of the bible or of the existence of the God of the bible.

As I grew older, I realized that life was not an easy journey. I saw births, deaths, birthdays, marriages, and divorces. I went to college, traveled a bit and realized that this world was not a small one by any means. Then it hit me, out of all the long term friends that I had collected, most of them were in one way or another "Christians". Of course you can say that no one really knows if they were born again but God himself, and while that is true, most of these people were good people. They cared about their faith and about their impact on society. They truly wanted to love their neighbor and share the love that the father had once shared with them.

As time went on, these people struggled in general. All of the pastors that had become friends of mine and my family's hit rocky patches. This was a sobering moment for me. These people that I once thought of as righteous before God's eyes demonstrated to just be normal human beings. I know that as a child a particular picture is painted in your head as to what it means to be a man of God, a Christian. Obviously these were all Child like thoughts and I was now leaving that behind, I realized that God must know their hearts and it is up to him to judge, not me.

I continued in the faith, growing physically, and also growing spiritually. I also had rough areas, but I overcame all obstacles, I knew that God was faithful to forgive my transgressions because I had accepted the gift of grace given to me in the form of Jesus Christ on the Cross. I knew that this is what being born again is. You are no longer a child of the world, but a Child of the Lord.

Not only did I talk the talk, but I walked the walked. I really shaped my lifestyle to line up with my faith and my new way of being. I let the "Holy Spirit" guide my every move. I knew that God was right there, next to me. I wanted and prayed for his will to be done in my life, for him to finish the work he started in me. Prayed for the fruits of the spirit, etc.

One day, I realized that Solomon was right. The evil doers receive good things, the righteous are kicked in the dirt. Everything was vain. All the work that I had ever done was vain. All the things I'd ever aspired to do were pointless. Nothing mattered in this world because at the end we all died and decomposed in the dirt. However, I knew that I would reign one day with Christ, so that's what i had to look forward to.

I then became OBSESSED with finding more truth. I wanted to know how the prophets and the Law aligned with the new testament. I wanted to know how this cosmic composition so wonderfully and amazingly perfectly aligned with itself. A book with 40 authors, spanning over 1500 years, written across many different lands and cultures ended up here, on my desk at home. I then realized that Christianity completely revolves around this book. It is almost as if its Bliblianity, rather than Christianity.

I began to notice that Doctrine and tradition are what made people act the way they acted. I realized that there were hundreds of different views, and assemblies in the forms of denominations. I realized that very few "Christians" agreed with each other. Why would God leave a book that is meant to unite and teach his people about him, cause so much division. Why is it that when I present something I learned from the word to a pastor, or fellow Christian friend, they tell me that I did not interpret that correctly? Why is it that I started to discover apparent contradictions that no one had ever mentioned to me before?

Something was up. Either I was in the wrong Church, or maybe this bible was not as crystal clear as I once thought. I kept praying, I kept asking God and the Holy Spirit for guidance. I fasted, and prayed. Fasted some more, and prayed some more. I sought advice from my closest Christian friends and relatives, we shared meals and lots of coffee, discussing these matters.

One day, about to finish a 5 day fast, I realized something......

There is no one Christianity. Yes, most agree in the basic concepts of Jesus' death and resurrection, being born again, faith, etc...
But when it came to the details, NO ONE AGREES. Even in minute details.

So this lead me to research more and more. Until I finally realized that there is no way that the most intelligent and magnificent being that created this whole reality would want to divide its people. On the contrary, he is a being of unity. Everything in nature points to unity. His finger print is unity. The human race has long drifted from that. There is a problem with the world and the influence on humanity.

Christians call that Satan. I call it something else now.

Modern Christianity was just another structured separation scheme. Nothing in it pointed to what actually made sense. All the wars, the disagreements, ETC... I could not take it anymore and I decided to look at material produced by secular scholars as well as Christian scholars.

I eventually stopped praying, and stopped seeking God. I realized that it did not made a difference on my well being. In fact, I feel liberated and happier now that I know that God probably isn't up there blotting out names...

If I am saved I am saved, If I am not then I guess I am not.

By their fruit you shall know them.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Is this where you find yourself today? I sincerely hope not!

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes I'm an antichrist. You caught me.

I do not find it amusing but you should be terrified at the prospect of an eternity apart from Christ. Outer darkness and the lake of fire are no laughing matter.

God made you in His image and likeness. God loves you as if you were the only person in the world. You spurn His love and consider it of no consequence. All your intellectual advisors will not fair any better but that will be of no comfort. Your liberty will be turned into bondage.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Nevertheless you are still arguing the same line and have not shown how "God's word reveals such overarching truths".

You are thinking about eisegesis and exegesis, exegesis being a person drawing out the meaning of a text through context. Eisegesis is imposing an interpretation onto the verses. I am not dismissing the necessity of exegesis, but somewhat along the lines of eisegesis I am asking people to consider these facts, established in scripture, with their current interpretations of other verses that seem to suggest a loss of salvation as opposed to eternal security.

You are half right, and half wrong. At first I am actually using exegesis to establish truths that, again, are immutable. It is once these truths have been stated, objective as they are, that I am then proposing that one reconsider their stances on other verses in acknowledgement of these truths. At this point you could argue it would become eisegesis, but the problem lies in the contradictions that arise once we have facts that are indisputable. In some ways, it forces eisegesis.

I would disagree that I haven't shown how God's word reveals these truths, as they are all stated in the OP. I didn't include chapter and verse, but did quote scripture throughout. I didn't want this to be a battle of who has more verses, but instead, a stating of facts that both sides must agree on as God's word is plain.

Sir, with all due respect, you haven't got an idea of what my Christian life was like. Not only did I believe with all of my being that Jesus had conquered death and payed the ultimate price for my sins, but that I also was his child. I was the child of God, bought by the blood of his son. I knew I was saved, and I knew that I was a new creature in Christ. I took this knowledge of truth and I couldn't resist telling everyone of the good news. I felt as if I was different. I felt as if I had been made a new creature. The more I learned about Jesus and God, the more I fell in love with him. There was no doubt in my mind as to the validity of the bible or of the existence of the God of the bible.

As I grew older, I realized that life was not an easy journey. I saw births, deaths, birthdays, marriages, and divorces. I went to college, traveled a bit and realized that this world was not a small one by any means. Then it hit me, out of all the long term friends that I had collected, most of them were in one way or another "Christians". Of course you can say that no one really knows if they were born again but God himself, and while that is true, most of these people were good people. They cared about their faith and about their impact on society. They truly wanted to love their neighbor and share the love that the father had once shared with them.

As time went on, these people struggled in general. All of the pastors that had become friends of mine and my family's hit rocky patches. This was a sobering moment for me. These people that I once thought of as righteous before God's eyes demonstrated to just be normal human beings. I know that as a child a particular picture is painted in your head as to what it means to be a man of God, a Christian. Obviously these were all Child like thoughts and I was now leaving that behind, I realized that God must know their hearts and it is up to him to judge, not me.

I continued in the faith, growing physically, and also growing spiritually. I also had rough areas, but I overcame all obstacles, I knew that God was faithful to forgive my transgressions because I had accepted the gift of grace given to me in the form of Jesus Christ on the Cross. I knew that this is what being born again is. You are no longer a child of the world, but a Child of the Lord.

Not only did I talk the talk, but I walked the walked. I really shaped my lifestyle to line up with my faith and my new way of being. I let the "Holy Spirit" guide my every move. I knew that God was right there, next to me. I wanted and prayed for his will to be done in my life, for him to finish the work he started in me. Prayed for the fruits of the spirit, etc.

One day, I realized that Solomon was right. The evil doers receive good things, the righteous are kicked in the dirt. Everything was vain. All the work that I had ever done was vain. All the things I'd ever aspired to do were pointless. Nothing mattered in this world because at the end we all died and decomposed in the dirt. However, I knew that I would reign one day with Christ, so that's what i had to look forward to.

I then became OBSESSED with finding more truth. I wanted to know how the prophets and the Law aligned with the new testament. I wanted to know how this cosmic composition so wonderfully and amazingly perfectly aligned with itself. A book with 40 authors, spanning over 1500 years, written across many different lands and cultures ended up here, on my desk at home. I then realized that Christianity completely revolves around this book. It is almost as if its Bliblianity, rather than Christianity.

I began to notice that Doctrine and tradition are what made people act the way they acted. I realized that there were hundreds of different views, and assemblies in the forms of denominations. I realized that very few "Christians" agreed with each other. Why would God leave a book that is meant to unite and teach his people about him, cause so much division. Why is it that when I present something I learned from the word to a pastor, or fellow Christian friend, they tell me that I did not interpret that correctly? Why is it that I started to discover apparent contradictions that no one had ever mentioned to me before?

Something was up. Either I was in the wrong Church, or maybe this bible was not as crystal clear as I once thought. I kept praying, I kept asking God and the Holy Spirit for guidance. I fasted, and prayed. Fasted some more, and prayed some more. I sought advice from my closest Christian friends and relatives, we shared meals and lots of coffee, discussing these matters.

One day, about to finish a 5 day fast, I realized something......

There is no one Christianity. Yes, most agree in the basic concepts of Jesus' death and resurrection, being born again, faith, etc...
But when it came to the details, NO ONE AGREES. Even in minute details.

So this lead me to research more and more. Until I finally realized that there is no way that the most intelligent and magnificent being that created this whole reality would want to divide its people. On the contrary, he is a being of unity. Everything in nature points to unity. His finger print is unity. The human race has long drifted from that. There is a problem with the world and the influence on humanity.

Christians call that Satan. I call it something else now.

Modern Christianity was just another structured separation scheme. Nothing in it pointed to what actually made sense. All the wars, the disagreements, ETC... I could not take it anymore and I decided to look at material produced by secular scholars as well as Christian scholars.

I eventually stopped praying, and stopped seeking God. I realized that it did not made a difference on my well being. In fact, I feel liberated and happier now that I know that God probably isn't up there blotting out names...

If I am saved I am saved, If I am not then I guess I am not.

Sir, with all due respect, you haven't got an idea of what my Christian life was like. Not only did I believe with all of my being that Jesus had conquered death and payed the ultimate price for my sins, but that I also was his child. I was the child of God, bought by the blood of his son. I knew I was saved, and I knew that I was a new creature in Christ. I took this knowledge of truth and I couldn't resist telling everyone of the good news. I felt as if I was different. I felt as if I had been made a new creature. The more I learned about Jesus and God, the more I fell in love with him. There was no doubt in my mind as to the validity of the bible or of the existence of the God of the bible.

As I grew older, I realized that life was not an easy journey. I saw births, deaths, birthdays, marriages, and divorces. I went to college, traveled a bit and realized that this world was not a small one by any means. Then it hit me, out of all the long term friends that I had collected, most of them were in one way or another "Christians". Of course you can say that no one really knows if they were born again but God himself, and while that is true, most of these people were good people. They cared about their faith and about their impact on society. They truly wanted to love their neighbor and share the love that the father had once shared with them.

As time went on, these people struggled in general. All of the pastors that had become friends of mine and my family's hit rocky patches. This was a sobering moment for me. These people that I once thought of as righteous before God's eyes demonstrated to just be normal human beings. I know that as a child a particular picture is painted in your head as to what it means to be a man of God, a Christian. Obviously these were all Child like thoughts and I was now leaving that behind, I realized that God must know their hearts and it is up to him to judge, not me.

I continued in the faith, growing physically, and also growing spiritually. I also had rough areas, but I overcame all obstacles, I knew that God was faithful to forgive my transgressions because I had accepted the gift of grace given to me in the form of Jesus Christ on the Cross. I knew that this is what being born again is. You are no longer a child of the world, but a Child of the Lord.

Not only did I talk the talk, but I walked the walked. I really shaped my lifestyle to line up with my faith and my new way of being. I let the "Holy Spirit" guide my every move. I knew that God was right there, next to me. I wanted and prayed for his will to be done in my life, for him to finish the work he started in me. Prayed for the fruits of the spirit, etc.

One day, I realized that Solomon was right. The evil doers receive good things, the righteous are kicked in the dirt. Everything was vain. All the work that I had ever done was vain. All the things I'd ever aspired to do were pointless. Nothing mattered in this world because at the end we all died and decomposed in the dirt. However, I knew that I would reign one day with Christ, so that's what i had to look forward to.

I then became OBSESSED with finding more truth. I wanted to know how the prophets and the Law aligned with the new testament. I wanted to know how this cosmic composition so wonderfully and amazingly perfectly aligned with itself. A book with 40 authors, spanning over 1500 years, written across many different lands and cultures ended up here, on my desk at home. I then realized that Christianity completely revolves around this book. It is almost as if its Bliblianity, rather than Christianity.

I began to notice that Doctrine and tradition are what made people act the way they acted. I realized that there were hundreds of different views, and assemblies in the forms of denominations. I realized that very few "Christians" agreed with each other. Why would God leave a book that is meant to unite and teach his people about him, cause so much division. Why is it that when I present something I learned from the word to a pastor, or fellow Christian friend, they tell me that I did not interpret that correctly? Why is it that I started to discover apparent contradictions that no one had ever mentioned to me before?

Something was up. Either I was in the wrong Church, or maybe this bible was not as crystal clear as I once thought. I kept praying, I kept asking God and the Holy Spirit for guidance. I fasted, and prayed. Fasted some more, and prayed some more. I sought advice from my closest Christian friends and relatives, we shared meals and lots of coffee, discussing these matters.

One day, about to finish a 5 day fast, I realized something......

There is no one Christianity. Yes, most agree in the basic concepts of Jesus' death and resurrection, being born again, faith, etc...
But when it came to the details, NO ONE AGREES. Even in minute details.

So this lead me to research more and more. Until I finally realized that there is no way that the most intelligent and magnificent being that created this whole reality would want to divide its people. On the contrary, he is a being of unity. Everything in nature points to unity. His finger print is unity. The human race has long drifted from that. There is a problem with the world and the influence on humanity.

Christians call that Satan. I call it something else now.

Modern Christianity was just another structured separation scheme. Nothing in it pointed to what actually made sense. All the wars, the disagreements, ETC... I could not take it anymore and I decided to look at material produced by secular scholars as well as Christian scholars.

I eventually stopped praying, and stopped seeking God. I realized that it did not made a difference on my well being. In fact, I feel liberated and happier now that I know that God probably isn't up there blotting out names...

If I am saved I am saved, If I am not then I guess I am not.

It's true. Most people who claim to be Christian ARE in fact liars.

Christ said his words are (his) Spirit and are life. His words are also called his seed for the same reasons, Seedz.

Seeds get planted, must be watered, and then grow into crop in time. Seeds can also be choked and starved until they die. And many seeds look very similar to others when first planted but grow to become very different crops in the end.

Those who have Christ's words/teachings in them - his pure words, all of his words, and not just for memorization sake but for application; to live by - have his Spirit.

Now this isn't something magical I'm referring to but actually a real phenomenon that can be confirmed in every single educational institution around the world.

If spirit means "character; nature; unique thought pattern" then every teacher shares their spirit (character; nature; unique thought pattern) with their students through the spoken word (i.e. the student starts thinking like the teacher)...hence the reason why education is "institutionalized" into a general prevailing school of thought...for control of the masses...and today that thought is primarily Greco-Roman and not Hebraic (which is the thought Christ taught in, by the way).

This is also why Christ warned his followers to beware of the doctrines/teachings of the religious who would twist the pure words of Yah into their own traditions and then teach their traditions to the masses.

So for each religious teacher who puts their own twist on the original words, you'll eventually have a new school of thought emerge touting their "truth", hence the thousands of Christian denominations.

Every word out of a person's mouth is that person's spirit...even words posted on this forum are a manifestation of each member's spirit.

So the way you know if the Spirit (of Yah) resides in a person is if the words they speak naturally align with ALL of the words that proceeded out of Yah's mouth, from the beginning of scripture to the end. Not aligning with words you heard sitting in a pew. Not with just NT letters lacking foundational context. But with the ENTIRE body of scripture (from genesis to revelation) in the Hebraic context they were spoken/written.

"You don't know what you worship for Salvation is of the Jews", Christ said to the gentile woman who was taught a gentile version of the truth.

Zechariah 8:23
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."

Jeremiah 16:19
"O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit."

It requires dedication to a lot of study & research of scripture to make sure you first have Yah's uncorrupted words, but it's still measurable to know...and you have to be willing to start over, uprooting what you've already been taught.

You do this and you will begin to discern true Christians with Yah's spirit from liars.

Now to the question as to whether the scriptures are the truth of The Eternal One versus another faith; I encourage you to study the unadulterated version of the scriptures from Hebraic thought and see where it leads you. Suspend any conclusions while you're giving it a college try.

If you're led to the same doubts afterwards then you'll know it's not the truth and you'll be wiser for it.

Thank you for this Yahshua. What a wonderful post of truth and hope.

It is these reply's that come from you that is the reason I stalk your posts

I did an in-depth study years ago on the Spiritual meaning of "water" in the Bible. I worked to rid my mind of all preconceived ideas of what it meant and spent literally months examining every time the word "water" was used and the Hebrew/Greek meanings, and the context, etc., fasting, prayer and so on. It was good to have an entire day each week to dedicate to study.

The result of the study showed me that the Spiritual meaning for "Water" is actually "influence" in most cases. There are Godly influences and Worldly influences. We are molded by which influence we surround our self with.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (Below) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

To drink of the "Living water", to wash in the Jordan river, the great flood of influence to destroy all Flesh upon the face of the earth, and the Ark God showed Noah how to build to avoid destruction.

It is a long study but has helped me understand terms like "leaven of the Pharisees" "Living water" and the promise that in the New Earth, never again the flood of destructive influence and the rainbow to show the promise.

As Jesus said "Take My Yoke upon you, and learn from Me". Not listen and follow other voices who use parts of God's Word as the serpent did to Eve. But to submerge ourselves, to be baptized, surrounded by, the Living water.

Great post Yahshua, don't keep all that savvy to yourself

it does not mean you believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior is you are saved automatically.

Lol amen, amen Studyman.

Yes there's such a vast amount of understanding to unlock just by doing simple word study and thematic study. There's so much more for us if we're willing to ask Yah and dig deeper past the surface.

"Oh the depth of the riches of Yah's wisdom."

For the edification of those here; take your genesis passage for instance, and adding to the understanding you shared of living waters, we have:


Waters from above (or water that ascends to heaven because of the "Sun [of righteousness]" effecting a change upon it; malachi 4:2)...

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they alsowhich pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


...Vs. Waters from below (that crash upon each other, striving and churning. No peace; daniel 7:2) ...

Revelation 17:15
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Daniel 7:3
And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

----

...it helps me to understand an even deeper meaning of Christ walking on water.

Christ couldn't possibly sink because he's not (water) from below, but from above. The two waters can not possibly mix as Yah's word in genesis can not return to him void.

What a promise given to those who are faithful and obedient; to be like Christ is.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: