Should a Christian tithe, what does the Bible say
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N
you know.... i came to CC as a sinless perfectionist <- works salvationist
and i attacked many here
even after reading every word of the bible many times
and some days spending over 10 hours in the word
i still was a victim to my own understanding
and through desperately trying to get the purest form of the truth i fell over a hebrew roots stumbling block
it was much like the old israel
God had used MANY of the brothers and sisters here to raise questions about my own understanding regarding the scriptures
in my heart
i knew some things didnt seem right
so i layed it all back at Gods feet
hundreds if not thousands of hours of study
after many sleepless nights of prayer and crying and looking at the bible with new eyes (trying to not impute previous beliefs to them)
i was finaly not only given assurance and peace
but a whole new level of appreciation for who our Father in heaven truely is...
torment and respect for Him turned into greater respect and love and confidence IN Him
i hope it doesnt sound like im talking down to you
but some of the brothers and sisters God used as a simple piece in the whole set of dominos to break that false doctrine from me are in this thread
and wanted to help you
i believe you came here with good intentions wanting to encourage
but let God use this place to work patience in you
maybe it will get heated at times
but no one (well this is the internet... i cannot speak for all)
well many here ... like you
just want to help and have been given many gifts in their own walk including bits of wisdom
please dont write us off so quickly
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That was a very encouraging read, thanks for sharing your experience. Of' course I admit I have a lot to learn, but patience is not one of my strong points.
I need to pray for patience and understanding, to be a more effective (fruitful) worker in the harvest field. I don't mean a works salvation, just good works as a result of the love obedience towards God and my fellow man
I need to pray for patience and understanding, to be a more effective (fruitful) worker in the harvest field. I don't mean a works salvation, just good works as a result of the love obedience towards God and my fellow man
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For those who think that tithing is not part of the New Covenant. Here in Heb 7:8 Tithing is being mentioned in the present tense in respect to the Christian church in approx. 63 AD.
And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
(Heb 7:8 KJV)
So how does HE that liveth recieveth tithes?
And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
(Heb 7:8 KJV)
So how does HE that liveth recieveth tithes?
I began by encouraging you to search the Scriptures to see if what you, and I, are saying is sound. I don't get any sense that you have done so. Rather, you have been bombastic, attacking me and others with unfounded accusations and insults. You have made many incorrect assumptions with regard to my motivation and my walk with the Lord. That is inappropriate.
Others are adequately addressing what they perceive to be a false gospel of works. I am only addressing the false gospel of tithing.
I will leave you this one question to search out: Are we as Christians under the Old Testament Law, such that we must follow it to the letter? If so, then of course we must tithe as described there. Generous giving is a separate issue, which we can discuss once you answer the question of Law.
Others are adequately addressing what they perceive to be a false gospel of works. I am only addressing the false gospel of tithing.
I will leave you this one question to search out: Are we as Christians under the Old Testament Law, such that we must follow it to the letter? If so, then of course we must tithe as described there. Generous giving is a separate issue, which we can discuss once you answer the question of Law.
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and about the people who challenged you over it, you probably thought for a while,
'they are trying to get out of doing good, and trying to justify living in sin all the time'
and
'they are speaking against the Bible, and all the verses they're quoting to me they are twisting'
is that kinda accurate?
before you took to heart what you were hearing?
'they are trying to get out of doing good, and trying to justify living in sin all the time'
and
'they are speaking against the Bible, and all the verses they're quoting to me they are twisting'
is that kinda accurate?
before you took to heart what you were hearing?
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as HRFTD points out, there is only one "receive" in the Greek of this sentence. in KJV, the second "recieveth them" is italicized -- it's a translator's addition to the text.
in the very next verse, Hebrews 7:9, it speaks of Melchizedek having received tithe ((past tense)) from Levi through Abraham.
in verse 8, the structure of the sentence is looking at two instances: "here" referring to Levi, and "there" referring to Melchizedek. the first case is present tense ((the present time of the writing of the epistle)) - dying men receive. it's in this case that the word "receive" is found. the second case doesn't include "receive" but does use two present-tense verbs: "being testified" and "that He lives"
there are two things being compared/contrasted in this saying, and the point of comparison is death and life, not receiving tithe. the Levites die, but the King of Peace lives. this has been central to the thrust of all that is being said about Melchizedek here; that He lives on, that His priesthood is forever - in contrast with that which lives only for a season, and which priesthood waxes old and passes away.
the tithe paid to Levi was perpetual as long as Levi was priest, and it was remitted - not given freely - according to the Law, which perfects nothing. Melchizedek, however, in scripture was only ever recorded as receiving a tenth once: from Abraham, who did not remit according to the Law that came hundreds of years later, but gave freely with no record of command: Abraham gave after being called blessed, and immediately afterward refused all the spoils that were rightly his, caring only for the people, what staples they had consumed in their flight, and not refusing what advantage those who had helped him were entitled to ((re: Genesis 14)).
this is not an argument not to give.
it is an argument not to consider our giving "tithe" as though by the commandment, which is disanulled, weak, and unprofitable.
in the very next verse, Hebrews 7:9, it speaks of Melchizedek having received tithe ((past tense)) from Levi through Abraham.
in verse 8, the structure of the sentence is looking at two instances: "here" referring to Levi, and "there" referring to Melchizedek. the first case is present tense ((the present time of the writing of the epistle)) - dying men receive. it's in this case that the word "receive" is found. the second case doesn't include "receive" but does use two present-tense verbs: "being testified" and "that He lives"
there are two things being compared/contrasted in this saying, and the point of comparison is death and life, not receiving tithe. the Levites die, but the King of Peace lives. this has been central to the thrust of all that is being said about Melchizedek here; that He lives on, that His priesthood is forever - in contrast with that which lives only for a season, and which priesthood waxes old and passes away.
the tithe paid to Levi was perpetual as long as Levi was priest, and it was remitted - not given freely - according to the Law, which perfects nothing. Melchizedek, however, in scripture was only ever recorded as receiving a tenth once: from Abraham, who did not remit according to the Law that came hundreds of years later, but gave freely with no record of command: Abraham gave after being called blessed, and immediately afterward refused all the spoils that were rightly his, caring only for the people, what staples they had consumed in their flight, and not refusing what advantage those who had helped him were entitled to ((re: Genesis 14)).
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.
(Hebrews 7:26-27)
(Hebrews 7:26-27)
see the parallel? one sacrifice, one pure gift, effectual, which has made perfect forever all who are being sanctified.this is not an argument not to give.
it is an argument not to consider our giving "tithe" as though by the commandment, which is disanulled, weak, and unprofitable.
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
(Hebrews 7:18)
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N
well...ya
i actually said those things... i didnt just think them
and i also was never once convinced by anyone here i was in error
it was only a slight doubt i had in my own understanding that built from .... so so so many arguments where i literally needed to go back to the word to build my case
i realized... am i defending the bible.... or am i defending my understanding of it.....
so i took a break from debate
spent whole days in the word
from when i woke up to went back to sleep some days
others no scripture just prayer
others bits of both
i was seeking the TRUTH to the best of my ability not caring if i came out looking like an idiot or being able to say "told ya so"
praise God
what came from it was a deep rooted genuine faith in Christ as my Lord and savior
no longer looking to my walk for assurance
but having peace in Him who loved me first
i no longer labor in hopes to gain or keep my salvation
now i labor out of gratitude
appreciation
love
i actually said those things... i didnt just think them
and i also was never once convinced by anyone here i was in error
it was only a slight doubt i had in my own understanding that built from .... so so so many arguments where i literally needed to go back to the word to build my case
i realized... am i defending the bible.... or am i defending my understanding of it.....
so i took a break from debate
spent whole days in the word
from when i woke up to went back to sleep some days
others no scripture just prayer
others bits of both
i was seeking the TRUTH to the best of my ability not caring if i came out looking like an idiot or being able to say "told ya so"
praise God
what came from it was a deep rooted genuine faith in Christ as my Lord and savior
no longer looking to my walk for assurance
but having peace in Him who loved me first
i no longer labor in hopes to gain or keep my salvation
now i labor out of gratitude
appreciation
love
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It seems to me that you got the sense that some are tight-fisted because of your conflation of tithing with giving, and your view that if one does not "tithe", he or she is not giving anything at all. Both are false views. Had you paused long enough to consider those two issues, which were presented early on, you might have ceased your attack sooner.
I would encourage you to re-read all the OT references to tithing, from Leviticus through to Malachi, and consider two things: whether "tithing" was voluntary, and whether it is the same as "offering". I would also suggest you consider what was to be presented for the tithe.
I would encourage you to re-read all the OT references to tithing, from Leviticus through to Malachi, and consider two things: whether "tithing" was voluntary, and whether it is the same as "offering". I would also suggest you consider what was to be presented for the tithe.
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A couple of examples for you:
Danny1988 #127:
God wants us to read His Word. He gave us His Word so that we could learn about Him. As we read His Word, He works in our hearts to bring understanding. None of us will ever understand the infinite and majestic magnificence of God perfectly in this lifetime, no matter how much time we spend studying Scripture. However, we can develop a wonderful relationship with our Heavenly Father as we come to know Him through His Word.
I think if you told your pastor that only "certain people" can rightly discern Scripture, he would set you straight on that. Hopefully, your pastor would acknowledge that God works within each person who comes to Him with a desire to know His Word. However, if he agreed with you that you are not qualified to read God's Word, I would suggest that you find a congregation where the pastor encourages people to read and study and watch God work in their hearts.
Danny1988 #244:
Totally untrue that our Lord Jesus Christ is no longer Shepherd of His flock. Jesus Christ still leads His people. He lives within the heart of the born again believer and guides him/her through every aspect of life. He also calls out to those who are still unbelievers so that they also turn to Him and allow Him to lead them.
So sad that you do not know this. Again, I believe your pastor can set you straight on this also. And, again, if your pastor agrees that we cannot approach the Shepherd, time for another congregation.
In agreement that God wants us to be good stewards of all He gives to us.
Do you think our stewardship pertains only to money?
Danny1988 #127:
the gift of rightly discerning scripture is only given by God to certain people, such as the shepherds. The rest of us sheep including yourself don’t have that gift, that’s why God appointed shepherds to lead the flock of sheep.
God wants us to read His Word. He gave us His Word so that we could learn about Him. As we read His Word, He works in our hearts to bring understanding. None of us will ever understand the infinite and majestic magnificence of God perfectly in this lifetime, no matter how much time we spend studying Scripture. However, we can develop a wonderful relationship with our Heavenly Father as we come to know Him through His Word.
I think if you told your pastor that only "certain people" can rightly discern Scripture, he would set you straight on that. Hopefully, your pastor would acknowledge that God works within each person who comes to Him with a desire to know His Word. However, if he agreed with you that you are not qualified to read God's Word, I would suggest that you find a congregation where the pastor encourages people to read and study and watch God work in their hearts.
Danny1988 #244:
Let me burst that ugly bubble of ignorance there, FOR YOUR INFORMATION Jesus can not be anyone’s shepherd unless you lived 2000 years ago. When was the last time you approached the shepherd?????? yeah right in your dream dude. He’s in heaven and your here in your sinful carnal body, you have no right to try to approach heaven.
Totally untrue that our Lord Jesus Christ is no longer Shepherd of His flock. Jesus Christ still leads His people. He lives within the heart of the born again believer and guides him/her through every aspect of life. He also calls out to those who are still unbelievers so that they also turn to Him and allow Him to lead them.
So sad that you do not know this. Again, I believe your pastor can set you straight on this also. And, again, if your pastor agrees that we cannot approach the Shepherd, time for another congregation.
In agreement that God wants us to be good stewards of all He gives to us.
Do you think our stewardship pertains only to money?
Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy,
to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,
holy and pleasing to God -- this is your true and proper worship.
(Romans 11:35-12:1 NIV)
Thy people are free-will gifts in the day of Thy strength,
in the honours of holiness, From the womb,
from the morning, Thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalm 110:3 YLT)
statistically a small percent of church-attending people give material support. statistically a small percent of church-attending people attend any study outside of weekly morning service.
statistically a small percent of church-attending people study the Bible outside of hearing a prepared weekly message.
statistically that weekly message is 20 minutes or less long and incredibly shallow in its delving into the scripture.
that is very poor state of affairs. what's behind the lack of involvement, the lack of study, the mediocrity of 'teaching' is both complex and simple.
i don't think the remedy is terror and accusation, but thanksgiving and love - things that grow cold when iniquity increases.
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