No, God did not lie

I find it hard to continue a positive discussion under a negative topic, so I would like to start again.

Quote: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand." (John 10:28-29)
No one includes yourself.

Response: ---

An interesting discussion, and the consensus is that ‘God does not lie,’ so we can look at some of the exceptions, which are perhaps conditional.

--- I agree that God does not go back on His promise of eternal life to believers, but as one poster quoted the verse from Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

When Jesus sent out the 12 disciples in Matthew 10:1 “He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.” --- Then it names them all, and Matthew says “And Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.”

The sending out would have been about 30 AD, and the time of Matthew’s writing was the late 50’s or 60’s, so it was written after the fact.

--- If we accept that Judas was one of the twelve, it would indicate that he was a believer, and at that time had received the Holy Spirit’s power for that occasion.

When Judas asked the Pharisees, “What will you give me if I deliver Him unto you?” ---Did he not take himself out of God’s hand?

Paul said of his companion Demas in 2 Timothy 4:10 “Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica.”

In Luke 9:61 And another also said, “Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house.”

62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Hi Placid, that, particularly in the case of Judas, would be conjecture. I don't believe that "followers" of Jesus, prior to His death and Resurrection, were considered "believers" (in the way we that think of them today), since two of the principle things Christians believe in hadn't happened yet, His death on the Cross and His Resurrection.

The Bible tells us that St. John was the first to see, understand and "believe" .. see John 20:8 below.

John 20
1 On the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb.
2 So she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
3 So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb.
4 The two were running together; and the other disciple ran ahead faster than Peter and came to the tomb first;
5 and stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings lying there; but he did not go in.
6 And so Simon Peter also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he saw the linen wrappings lying there,
7 and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself.
8 So the other disciple who had first come to the tomb then also entered, and he saw and believed.
9 For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.

~Deut

Hi Placid, this explanation is going to require the entire passage from Matthew 7, so here goes:

........Matthew 7
........21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father
........who is in heaven will enter.
........22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons,
........and in Your name perform many miracles?’
........23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Many will stand in the Judgment saying, "Lord, Lord", who are not/never were Christians .. cf Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (though many of these may actually 'believe' that they are, which is one of the most frightening facts in the Bible, IMHO).

So this passage cannot be used as an example of the Lord going back on His promise to us of eternal life. 'True' Christians are the ones who both know God and do His will as a result (and we are the only ones who can* .. cf 1 Corinthians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

*(for St. Paul's apt description of non-believers, the ones he refers to as "natural" men/women, please take special note of 1 Cor 2:14 )

~Deut

Jesus said He had not lost any except one- the son of perdition (Judas). As for 'no one can snatch them out of My hand', and 'they shall never persish', 'They' and 'Them' pertain to saved Christians. If someone is no longer saved and no longer a Christian, then 'They' and 'Them' does not apply to the unsaved. Just as if a man adopted ten children, and two of them went to court as adults and divorced him from being their dad, from that moment on the phrase 'his children' no longer applies to them, he is now only speaking of the eight, not ten.

The bold part is added and not what the verses state.. This verse talks about someone not being in the Fathers hand snatching out someone within the Fathers hand.. It is Not covering a Christian themselves..

If you just read what the verses say and take it for what it said then it does not state that a person in the hand of God cannot decide for themselves to jump out of his hand and abandon God..

We have to look at what scriptures are quoteed, Mathew Mark Luke and John are given in a time when there no born again. Easy to confuse the word when we dont separate it, as well as "Rightly Divide."

I would say he fits the picture in Hebrew 6. (two groups)

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4- 5

And not them who like Esau who sold their birth rite for a bowl of soup (thirty pieces of silver )

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation,(redemption of a soul) though we thus speak.,Hebrews 6:9

Somewhere you guys have to fit the new birth of a new creation, Heb. 6 is written to those that have fallen from grace back into law has nothing to do with salvation.

Amen! I agree. The Apostle Paul tells us that we're not just merely held in His hand, WE ARE HIS HAND! We are part of His body! Amen.

That's why Placid said No God did not lie.

If God gives someone eternal life and says they will never die then that's the end of it.

If you say "but a Christian can decide later on that he can give back eternal life and decide to die" then you say God mis-spoke in John 10

I think we mostly know where the problem is here. Its not with God or His Word.

Hi Deuteronomy

I agree with you that before the cross, there was 'faith to believe,' but not the indwelling Holy Spirit. Therefore they were constantly making choices from their ‘faith in God,’ or lack of it.

You are right about John, and this is an interesting statement.
Quote: (though many of these may actually 'believe' that they are saved, which is one of the most frightening facts in the Bible, IMHO).

John did not have full assurance until he actually saw the empty tomb. --- But what about Peter? He was the vocal leader of the disciples, was he not?

Matthew 26: 31 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night,
33 Peter answered and said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble.”
34 Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”

74 (And in his third denial), Then he began to curse and swear, saying, “I do not know the Man!” --- Immediately a rooster crowed.
75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” So he went out and wept bitterly.

--- When Peter heard the rooster crow this time, what would be his instant reaction? --- To look at Jesus, --- and to see Jesus looking at him. --- That look would totally undo Peter, “So he went out and wept bitterly.”

Luke 22:31 (In predicting Peter’s three denials), The Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and ‘when you have returned to Me,' strengthen your brethren.” (NKJV) ---

KJV, and when thou art converted; --- NASV, when once you have turned again; --- NIV, And when you have turned back; --- Amplified, once you have turned back again [to Me].

I believe this was when Peter shed tears of repentance and confession, and was converted, in order to be the vessel he became, and again take his position of leadership among the Apostles.

Hi OneFaith,

I agree, and as
Adstar said next, --- 'No one includes yourself.' --- was not part of the verses quoted but was added.

I believe we can find other verses that say that after being offered the free gift of salvation, there are those who, after a first decision to follow Christ have been discouraged or lured away by the world, the flesh and the devil.

Quote: “The Bible says salvation is a gift from God.” (Ephesians 2:8)

Yes, this is part of the familiar passage, --- 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

--- This is often used to assure us that God saves us and keeps us. --- But the next verse starts with ‘for,’ --- and somebody said that when a verse starts with ‘for’ or ‘therefore,’ you should look back and see what it is ‘there for.’ --- It is often dependant on what preceded it.

We can read it like this, 8 “For by (God’s) grace you have been saved through (your) faith, and that (salvation is) not of yourselves (not through your own effort); it is the gift (unmerited favor) of God,
9 not (as a result) of (your) works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship (prepared workers), created in Christ Jesus (spiritually transformed and ready to be used) for good works, which God prepared beforehand (for us) that we should walk in them."

--- So God’s free gift of salvation comes with a ‘work schedule.’ --- God already has a plan for us that we are able to follow, in service to Him, --- if we are willing.

--- Are we fully committed to do God’s will in our lives, or are we apt to follow our own will a little longer?

This is where Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.”

--- So this makes our entrance into heaven look kind of conditional, does it not? As though our acceptance depends on our obedience in doing His will in our transformed lives.

Great idea. The other thread's title should never have appeared for as long as it did as it blasphemed God at first sight.

The Apostles were Jews who believed in God and were members of the temple. They walked with Jesus because they knew he was who he said he was. They witnessed the miracles and knew no other than God could have done those things.
John 1:1-3, 14 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. … And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”

John 3:16 tells us why Jesus was born. Leave it to humans to make complicated a very simple message born from a very great and pain filled sacrifice of God himself in the flesh.

Unfortunately, Judas gets a very bad rap in the whole narrative. When Jesus purpose was to become the last sin sacrifice so that all who believed in him would no perish in their sins but have eternal life as those who are eternally in God's grace, how would Jesus have accomplished his purpose had Judas not done the part Jesus in fact told him to do?

Hi OneFaith, et al, when speaking about salvation to eternal life, the Bible tells us that no one can come to Christ and be saved unless he/she has been drawn/given to Him by His Father first. Jesus also tells us (again, speaking about the eternal lives of the elect .. and that from His POV), that NONE of these "drawn ones" will ever be lost .. John 6:37-40, 44, 65.

My question is this, how can the Lord's statement, "I LOSE NOTHING" (which specifically refers to eternal life/salvation), be true if even one of these elect/sheep (who were drawn and given to Him by His Father) is lost* to Him?

........John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
........ALL that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.

*(Perhaps they were never Christians to begin with, no matter what their claim and/or belief about themselves in this life may have been? .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23 .. "I NEVER knew you")

Thanks!

~Deut

..........1 John 2
..........19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
..........However, they went out so that it might be made manifest that none of them belonged to us.
.

Judas did not lose that which he never had....HE was never saved.....the bible is clear...

a. Called a devil from the beginning
b. Called a thief holding the bag
c. Called THE son of perdition
d. Showed remorse, but never repented and went to the priests instead of JESUS and repenting
e. He hung himself

i was with you till e. he hung himself. i don't see how his suicide proves he was never saved, it may have kept him from getting saved, i can see that.

If your talking to me....never said that his suicide had anything to do with the fact that he was already lost and never saved to begin with!

Ū
Jesus doesn't lose us but we can lose Him. The verse... "But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins." (Hebrews 10:26) proves that a genuinely saved person can lose their salvation.

"For if it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner? " 1 Peter 4:18

Hi OneFaith, in reality, Hebrews 10:26 says, "if you 'go on'/''continue' sinning willfully...............". Those who do not change from, or who quickly return to, their former, sinful "lifestyles" after they've claimed to have become Christians, were never saved to begin with. Those who continue in sin/"go on sinning willfully" is actually the description of a non-Christian, not a true believer.

For what it's worth, ἁμαρτάνω ἑκουσίως/"willfully sinning", carries that sense of deliberate sin that is habitual, which is why the NASB, ESV, NIV, etc., translate the verse as "go on sinning willfully". v26 speaks of those who both deliberately and habitually reject Jesus. The ones who do that were never Christians to begin with, no matter what prayer or claim they may have spoken/made at some point in time .. cf Matthew 7:23.

Speaking of true Christians, the author of Hebrews finishes chapter 10 with these words.......

........Hebrews 10
........39 We are not of those who shrink back to destruction [perdition], but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

If you don't mind/if you have the time, please take another look at the Lord's words from John 6. John 6:39 says, I LOSE NOTHING. If there are any true Christians (IOW, ones who have truly been saved by Christ) who renounce their faith in Him and somehow become un-born again/unbelievers again, then His promise to us in John 6 is an empty one (a lie), because if anyone who was truly His rejects Him and walks away from Him forever, they haven't lost Him (because they're the ones who chose to reject Him), but He has most certainly "lost" them (something that He promised us would never happen)!

Thanks!

~Deut