The Law
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I think the "LAW" shows us so much more than that.
2 Tim. 3:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I don't know of anyone who believes they can forgive their own sin, at least anyone who claims to believe in God. I believe the "Law" has a different purpose than you have described, given the above Post, and there are volumes of scriptures which also confirm the above Scripture.
And once the Christ cleans us then what? Do we drop the mirror so we forget what manner of man we are?
James 1:
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Only the Messiah has the Power to erase my rebellion and indifference towards Him. Shall I continue to rebel against His Words after He has cleansed me?
Christ has His part, and I have mine in this relationship.
2 Cor. 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
1 Cor. 3:
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
God's Word does so much more than show us our sin, IMO.
2 Tim. 3:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I don't know of anyone who believes they can forgive their own sin, at least anyone who claims to believe in God. I believe the "Law" has a different purpose than you have described, given the above Post, and there are volumes of scriptures which also confirm the above Scripture.
And once the Christ cleans us then what? Do we drop the mirror so we forget what manner of man we are?
James 1:
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Only the Messiah has the Power to erase my rebellion and indifference towards Him. Shall I continue to rebel against His Words after He has cleansed me?
Christ has His part, and I have mine in this relationship.
2 Cor. 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
1 Cor. 3:
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
God's Word does so much more than show us our sin, IMO.
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Paul says when the law flows through him it kills him. Jesus says unless you keep ever single point of the law you are dead. The law has no other purpose than to show us how utterly sinful we are & that without the grace provided through Jesus we cannot be saved.
That is why we now live under the royal law that Jesus gave us, love God and love your neighbor.
That is why we now live under the royal law that Jesus gave us, love God and love your neighbor.
I always have hope that you will at least acknowledge someday what Paul is speaking to in Galatians. The "Works of the Law" being pushed by the Jews who didn't believe Jesus was the High Priest, was not the "First and Second Greatest Commandment in the Law" on which the entire Law and Prophets hang. It was the Jews version of the Levitical Priesthood Sacrificial, ceremonial "Works of the Law" given to the Levites for the remission of sins. They continued to preach these Priesthood "Works of the Law" for the atonement of sins as they didn't accept Jesus and Old Testament teaching that "The Just shall live by faith". They were bewitching the Galatians by preaching to them they must be cleansed by the Priesthood "Works of the Law" given by God, through Moses, "Till the Seed (Perfect High Priest) should come".
The Scriptures say Abraham had God's Laws, but Levi wasn't even born yet, so we know Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood. It was "ADDED" 430 years later. He was justified by God and blessed to be sure. But He was not cleansed or made righteous by the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" added 430 years later. He believed in God enough to obey Him and God said because of this "Faith" he was blessed.
I have asked before many times. What was Added, what was it Added to, and what was being Transgressed to cause God to "ADD" it?
He gave us the purpose of the Levitical Priesthood. It was "ADDED" to God's Laws Abraham obeyed, because of "Transgressions" of God's Laws given to Abraham. It was put in place until Jesus should come and shed His Blood, which was the Spiritual Symbolism of the "sacrificial "Works of the Law" in the first place. This Law was to "lead" people to the death and resurrection of Christ for the atonement of sins. Once He came and fulfilled the shedding of His Blood, we are no longer in need of the sacrificial "works of the Law" for atonement, but Faith in the truth that it was His blood, not the Blood of Goats which cleansed our sin in the first place.
But the Pharisees had corrupted themselves and lost sight of the true meaning for the "works of the Law" for remission of sins.
They didn't follow God's Words, therefore they didn't know God, and therefore they didn't know Jesus. They continued to push these Priesthood "works of the Law" for atonement and reconciliation.
This is Paul struggle in Galatians.
The Scriptures say Abraham had God's Laws, but Levi wasn't even born yet, so we know Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood. It was "ADDED" 430 years later. He was justified by God and blessed to be sure. But He was not cleansed or made righteous by the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" added 430 years later. He believed in God enough to obey Him and God said because of this "Faith" he was blessed.
I have asked before many times. What was Added, what was it Added to, and what was being Transgressed to cause God to "ADD" it?
He gave us the purpose of the Levitical Priesthood. It was "ADDED" to God's Laws Abraham obeyed, because of "Transgressions" of God's Laws given to Abraham. It was put in place until Jesus should come and shed His Blood, which was the Spiritual Symbolism of the "sacrificial "Works of the Law" in the first place. This Law was to "lead" people to the death and resurrection of Christ for the atonement of sins. Once He came and fulfilled the shedding of His Blood, we are no longer in need of the sacrificial "works of the Law" for atonement, but Faith in the truth that it was His blood, not the Blood of Goats which cleansed our sin in the first place.
But the Pharisees had corrupted themselves and lost sight of the true meaning for the "works of the Law" for remission of sins.
They didn't follow God's Words, therefore they didn't know God, and therefore they didn't know Jesus. They continued to push these Priesthood "works of the Law" for atonement and reconciliation.
This is Paul struggle in Galatians.
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I understand the teaching, I know it is widespread. I just don't think we should ignore scriptures simply because they go against the wide spread teaching.
Paul doesn't say the Law flows through him and kills him. You say that. Paul doesn't.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin (transgression of the Law) revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin,(Transgression of the Law) taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
He said when the Law came to him, he saw that He broke it and was condemned to death. It wasn't the Law that killed him. It was his disobedience to the law that killed him. It's Called Sin.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
You preached to me that Paul said "law flows through him it kills him". But Paul is saying just the opposite here. Was it the "good, Holy, and Just Law that killed Him? God forbid.
But sin,(Transgression of the Law) that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good;
So it isn't the Good, Holy and Just Laws that killed Paul, it was the transgression of these Laws that killed Paul, the Law just pointed it out.
So then to his question, "Was then that which is good made death unto me?" The answer, a resounding NO!!!! So why did sin kill him then?
That sin (Transgression of the Law) by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rejecting God's Word, rebelling against Him, this is serious stuff. There is no greater penalty than death. Paul is saying the reason for this death is so we can understand how EVIL, Wicked, and really, really ban transgression of God's Commandments are. It's not OK to create our own religion, it's not OK to break God's Law or add or take away from His Word.
Jesus is here to help us. He can wipe out our past transgressions, and give us help. "Helmet of Salvation", "Sword of the Word", etc.
But we have our part as the scriptures teach.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
And Paul teaches both Jew and Greek.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Eph. 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; (A Commandments of God) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Paul doesn't say the Law flows through him and kills him. You say that. Paul doesn't.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin (transgression of the Law) revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin,(Transgression of the Law) taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
He said when the Law came to him, he saw that He broke it and was condemned to death. It wasn't the Law that killed him. It was his disobedience to the law that killed him. It's Called Sin.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
You preached to me that Paul said "law flows through him it kills him". But Paul is saying just the opposite here. Was it the "good, Holy, and Just Law that killed Him? God forbid.
But sin,(Transgression of the Law) that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good;
So it isn't the Good, Holy and Just Laws that killed Paul, it was the transgression of these Laws that killed Paul, the Law just pointed it out.
So then to his question, "Was then that which is good made death unto me?" The answer, a resounding NO!!!! So why did sin kill him then?
That sin (Transgression of the Law) by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rejecting God's Word, rebelling against Him, this is serious stuff. There is no greater penalty than death. Paul is saying the reason for this death is so we can understand how EVIL, Wicked, and really, really ban transgression of God's Commandments are. It's not OK to create our own religion, it's not OK to break God's Law or add or take away from His Word.
Jesus is here to help us. He can wipe out our past transgressions, and give us help. "Helmet of Salvation", "Sword of the Word", etc.
But we have our part as the scriptures teach.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
And Paul teaches both Jew and Greek.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Eph. 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; (A Commandments of God) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is goodto bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
Well, the Bible says he did....
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is goodto bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
Well, the Bible says he did....
It's not like at all. It's that the Bible has Words, and warnings, and examples of people who add to and omit scriptures to promote a particular religious tradition or belief. In fact, the very first deceiver used parts of God's Word to deceive Eve, and ultimately Adam. The serpent used parts of God's Word, not all of them, because we are to live by Every Word, as Jesus said.
Honoring God/Jesus by believing and following Their Words are Glorifying Them, not man. When a man follows religious traditions of man over the Commandments of God, that is man claiming glory for themselves. When a man refused to listen to God's Words, and replace them with their own words, that is claiming glory for themselves. IMO.
The Bible teaches to "Repent, turn to God, and do works worthy of repentance". You don't believe in that it seems. How are you glorifying God by rejecting His Teaching?
Honoring God/Jesus by believing and following Their Words are Glorifying Them, not man. When a man follows religious traditions of man over the Commandments of God, that is man claiming glory for themselves. When a man refused to listen to God's Words, and replace them with their own words, that is claiming glory for themselves. IMO.
The Bible teaches to "Repent, turn to God, and do works worthy of repentance". You don't believe in that it seems. How are you glorifying God by rejecting His Teaching?
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All man has sinned, except Jesus. But there are examples of some who repented and honored God with obedience.
Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
I might be prudent to note that both Abraham and Zechariahs knew Jesus when he came to them, but the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did not.
Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
I might be prudent to note that both Abraham and Zechariahs knew Jesus when he came to them, but the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did not.
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yes, you did. God's Sabbath and the truth about Col.2 thread, page 514, post # 10, 276, you said " part of the fourth command is to keep it Holy. we can only do that through Christ...…………..and we can finally keep the Sabbath day holy and cease from our physical work...……..
so, there. troll alert huh? how about a deceptive false teacher alert.
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All of this talk about a faith based salvation, a work based salvation, blaa, blaa!! To read what some of you write without reading scripture, you would think that if God chose to give you the gift of some mysterious factor called salvation, that is all there is to this life or the life to come.
Fact is, as scripture tells it, salvation is a very mystical gift we receive only if we truly believe in God--as something more to life than the secular stuff we see. We have evidence of this mysticism all around us in the world that our Lord has created.
God tells us of a life here that is beyond the one that people who are blind to God working among us live in. It is in the blessings that we can receive for work that scripture lays out for us to do. Jews have historically been more conscious of these gifts than gentiles who often scoff at them saying they are works that do not save. Jews are blessed with more money, more education, for prizes, more blessings than gentiles, just because they learn the works that bring blessings while gentiles don't believe God when God tells them of these blessings they could have.
Fact is, as scripture tells it, salvation is a very mystical gift we receive only if we truly believe in God--as something more to life than the secular stuff we see. We have evidence of this mysticism all around us in the world that our Lord has created.
God tells us of a life here that is beyond the one that people who are blind to God working among us live in. It is in the blessings that we can receive for work that scripture lays out for us to do. Jews have historically been more conscious of these gifts than gentiles who often scoff at them saying they are works that do not save. Jews are blessed with more money, more education, for prizes, more blessings than gentiles, just because they learn the works that bring blessings while gentiles don't believe God when God tells them of these blessings they could have.
We have such an advantage, the Jews have been blinded to Christ and we have Christ in our lives. You would think that with this advantage we would listen to all of God and not let the Jews get ahead of us in triumphant, victorious living here. We know grace like they don't, but we don't believe the promises of blessings. By listening to God and using some discipline in our lives, we could have the same.
Yeah but they have their reasons for imposing this.. It just means you have to make sure your post is all you want to say before you post it.. So spell check and proof read before posting... I try to remember to do this.. But sometimes the desire to get the reply done can make one rush things..
Oh and yes i have been on more then a few forums over the last 20 years.. So i would not be surprised if we have met elsewhere..
Oh and yes i have been on more then a few forums over the last 20 years.. So i would not be surprised if we have met elsewhere..