The cultic origins of Annihilationism

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Stunnedbygrace

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shrume said:
I do not believe anyone or any thing will be in eternal conscious torments.

Even the devil himself will eventually be burned up, and be gone:

Eze 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Private: SBG, I got both of your PMs and replied to both of them. Are you seeing the responses?
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Yes, I got them. For some odd reason it never alerted me though in the little envelope top right of screen...glitch I guess.

How do you tie this verse you give with this verse?
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
CS1

CS1

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shrume said:
The second death will be permanent. Eternal conscious torments is not true.


I believe it is completely biblical. The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23).

I believe that it was, and is.


The Bible says that death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire, and destroyed (Rev 20:15).


Mark 9:
43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

The fire will not be able to be quenched until it's done doing its job, which is to burn things up.


Rev 20:
13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

There is no indication in those verses that the unsaved will be tormented in a conscious state forever.


2 Pet 2:
4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

This verse is speaking of angels that sinned and were thrown into Tartarus. It has literally nothing to do with people.


Jesus taught that the chaff would be burnt up, or carried away. He did not teach eternal torments.


As SGB noted above, claiming death is not really death is allegorizing.


The doctrine of the "immortal soul", and that the unsaved will be tormented forever is both of those things.


Indeed.... :rolleyes:
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the doctrine of the "immortal soul" is not what I am talking about .

that is just a coined phrase like annihilationism .
I am talking about the Biblical context of hell and those who will go there and what will hell be like as discribed by the Lord Himself
the doctrine of hell. The question we must ask and get our answers from the word od God.

hell, what is it? it is a place prepared for the devil and his angels Matt 25:41


who will go there ? the devil and his angels and all not found in the book of life REV 20:13-14
and how long wiil they be there forever..

who was the the biblical figures who spoke on hell and who is the Authority on the subjest when they speak on it?

That is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Jesus said it is a place
it is forever,
and it is of torment.

I believe What Jesus said about hell in the word of God.

(Matt 10:28; see also 5:29-30; 23:15,33; Luke 10:15; 16:23).
Jesus’ teaching about an “eternal punishment” (Matt. 25:46),

Jesus clearly and taught of a final judgment and the separation of the righteous from the unrighteous. The unrighteous will be condemned to a place of blazing fire and utter darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (See Matt. 13:24-30,36-43, 47-50; 22:1-14; 25:14-46.)

Jesus called this place “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). Hell is not a place where people are tormented by the devil; it is where those who reject God will suffer the same fate as the devil and his demons. It is the place of final judgment.

Jesus is the authority on hell and HE said it is an eternal place of eternal torment.

FYI Jesus did not lie. You have issue take it up with the Authority on hell.

you are not it nor am I Jesus is . and the Word is clear. were done
 
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Stunnedbygrace

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Nov 12, 2015
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CS1 said:
I went through 25 posting and 8 tabs and this is the first comment were you used what I think is an incomplte verse or chapter rev 20.
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Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And then, further down:
This lake of fire is the second death. 15And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.
 
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shrume

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Jun 26, 2017
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Stunnedbygrace said:
How do you tie this verse you give with this verse?
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
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I'll probably be raked over the coals for this, but given all the other scriptures that define death, and what death is, and say what will happen to the unsaved (die, perish, cut off, burn up like chaff, be no more, etc) I believe that phrase in Rev 20:10 is hyperbole. Also, the phrase translated "for ever and ever" is more literally "to the ages of ages". Some people and demons might burn for a really long time, but they will eventually burn up.

Gotta go for awhile... will check back later.
 
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shrume

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Jun 26, 2017
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CS1 said:
the doctrine of the "immortal soul" is not what I am talking about .

that is just a coined phrase like annihilationism .
I am talking about the Biblical context of hell and those who will go there and what will hell be like as discribed by the Lord Himself
the doctrine of hell. The question we must ask and get our answers from the word od God.

hell, what is it? it is a place prepared for the devil and his angels Matt 25:41


who will go there ? the devil and his angels and all not found in the book of life REV 20:13-14
and how long wiil they be there forever..

who was the the biblical figures who spoke on hell and who is the Authority on the subjest when they speak on it?

That is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Jesus said it is a place
it is forever,
and it is of torment.

I believe What Jesus said about hell in the word of God.

(Matt 10:28; see also 5:29-30; 23:15,33; Luke 10:15; 16:23).
Jesus’ teaching about an “eternal punishment” (Matt. 25:46),

Jesus clearly and taught of a final judgment and the separation of the righteous from the unrighteous. The unrighteous will be condemned to a place of blazing fire and utter darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (See Matt. 13:24-30,36-43, 47-50; 22:1-14; 25:14-46.)

Jesus called this place “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). Hell is not a place where people are tormented by the devil; it is where those who reject God will suffer the same fate as the devil and his demons. It is the place of final judgment.

Jesus is the authority on hell and HE said it is an eternal place of eternal torment.

FYI Jesus did not lie. You have issue take it up with the Authority on hell.

you are not it nor am I Jesus is . and the Word is clear. were done
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You have brought nothing new to the table, CS1. I have addressed most, if not all, of your concerns.

You're just repeating what you believe.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

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shrume said:
I'll probably be raked over the coals for this, but given all the other scriptures that define death, and what death is, and say what will happen to the unsaved (die, perish, cut off, burn up like chaff, be no more, etc) I believe that phrase in Rev 20:10 is hyperbole. Also, the phrase translated "for ever and ever" is more literally "to the ages of ages". Some people and demons might burn for a really long time, but they will eventually burn up.

Gotta go for awhile... will check back later.
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Well...I have to say that I think you maybe should be raked over the coals for it! :)

The unsaved humans are one story.
A being like satan (and the two men he indwells) are a different story. The reason satan appears to be a different story to me is that he amazingly does seem to somehow have eternal life apart from God. I can't understand or explain it, but it does appear so.

Okay, talk later. :)
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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peacefulbeliever said:
Satan said: You shall not surely die but scripture makes clear who was telling the truth - Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Death, both spiritual and physical, was the result of man's believing Satan's lie. . . .

life and death are both states of conscious existence . . . For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. . . . Whatsoever your had finds to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, where you go. . . . life being on-going existence in the presence of the Lord . . . same lie the devil told "you shall not surely die". And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. (Heb. 9:27)
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It is because you, like others here, view the word "death" as unconsciousness, non-existence. Until you understand the scriptural meaning of death relating to ones state of being in relation to God, then you will always be in error.

We already know from "the rich man and Lazarus" that both men died, the bodies being buried and yet there spirits were conscious and aware somewhere else. You people however, have changed it into a parable and that because if it is true, then it destroys your whole position. But you can be sure that the rich man and Lazarus was a literal event that the Lord revealed to demonstrate the conscious awareness of the spirit after death of both the righteous and the wicked and that there is on-going punishment for the wicked.

It's pretty pathetic of those who always turn to Eccl.9:5 to prove their point, while ignoring all the other available scriptures which demonstrate conscious awareness of the spirit after death. Let's look at that scripture:

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate, and their envy have already vanished, and they will never again have a portion in all that is done under the sun.

Since humans are made up of body, soul and spirit (Hebs.4:12), everywhere in scripture where the person who is dead and referred to as "sleeping" it is referring only to the body, not spirit. That is the only correct exegetical conclusion that one can come to seeing that we have other scriptures which demonstrate the spirit of both the righteous and wicked being conscious and aware after the death of the body. Therefore, when Eccl.9:5 says, "the dead known nothing" it is in reference to the body, which is said to be sleeping, while the spirit is elsewhere conscious and aware. Again I would remind you of the rich man who died and whose spirit was found in Hades in torment in flame. Furthermore, the rest of the scripture says "they have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten" which is because they are no longer alive on the earth and has nothing to do regarding the departure of the spirit. Your exegesis is incomplete and that because you only look at one example and then ignore the rest.

Stop thinking of "death" and "destruction" as being non-existent, because I guarantee you that is not the case.
 
CS1

CS1

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shrume said:
You have brought nothing new to the table, CS1. I have addressed most, if not all, of your concerns.

You're just repeating what you believe.
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you need to hit the tab you miss the rest

here you Go:

hell, what is it? it is a place prepared for the devil and his angels Matt 25:41


who will go there ? the devil and his angels and all not found in the book of life REV 20:13-14
and how long wiil they be there forever..

who was the the biblical figures who spoke on hell and who is the Authority on the subjest when they speak on it?

That is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Jesus said it is a place
it is forever,
and it is of torment.

I believe What Jesus said about hell in the word of God.

(Matt 10:28; see also 5:29-30; 23:15,33; Luke 10:15; 16:23).
Jesus’ teaching about an “eternal punishment” (Matt. 25:46),

Jesus clearly and taught of a final judgment and the separation of the righteous from the unrighteous. The unrighteous will be condemned to a place of blazing fire and utter darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (See Matt. 13:24-30,36-43, 47-50; 22:1-14; 25:14-46.)

Jesus called this place “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). Hell is not a place where people are tormented by the devil; it is where those who reject God will suffer the same fate as the devil and his demons. It is the place of final judgment.

Jesus is the authority on hell and HE said it is an eternal place of eternal torment.

FYI Jesus did not lie. You have issue take it up with the Authority on hell.

you are not it nor am I Jesus is . and the Word is clear. were done

your right nothing NEW all Bible why do I need to bring something new you refuse to agree with whaqt has already been writen and said by the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
G

garee

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shrume said:
I'll probably be raked over the coals for this, but given all the other scriptures that define death, and what death is, and say what will happen to the unsaved (die, perish, cut off, burn up like chaff, be no more, etc) I believe that phrase in Rev 20:10 is hyperbole. Also, the phrase translated "for ever and ever" is more literally "to the ages of ages". Some people and demons might burn for a really long time, but they will eventually burn up.

Gotta go for awhile... will check back later.
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How does a lying spirit burn seeing has no substance as a rudiment of this world ?
 
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Stunnedbygrace

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Ahwatukee said:
Since humans are made up of body, soul and spirit (Hebs.4:12),
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In my opinion, this isn't a good verse to prove humans are made up of an eternal spirit apart from the Spirit of God.
It talks of the word of God being like a sharp sword that cuts apart, divides or discerns between soul and spirit by revealing the innermost thoughts of a man.
 
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garee

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Ahwatukee said:
"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

Not meaning that they would die that very day physically, but that there right state with God would change to a state of separation. They eventually did die hundreds of years later and according to other scriptures their spirits would have departed at the time of death, conscious and aware.

As I have told you before and which is supported by scripture, life and death are both states of conscious existence. Life being on-going existence in the presence of the Lord and death being on-going existence in separation from the Lord in the lake of fire. Death neither means unconsciousness nor non-existence, but is defined by ones state of being in relation to God. For those in Christ, their state with God is life. For those who are not in Christ, their state is death, which again is not annihilation or extinction, but they are unreconciled and therefore separated from God.
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life is on state of conscious existence, all are born with a temporal corruptible spirit as the result of sin And by the mercy of God are given 70 or 80 years living in a body of death .But its not the first death (70 or so years) but the second death that ends all existence never to rise to new spirit life again. God is not merciless. Some are given grace a new spirit that will never die. And God looked on Abel with favor or compassion but not Cain. He spent his life as a restless wanderer suffering the living pangs of hell, as a marked man

Other don't get punished because God did not have compassion on them .
 
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Stunnedbygrace

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CS1 said:
I believe What Jesus said about hell in the word of God.

(Matt 10:28; see also 5:29-30; 23:15,33; Luke 10:15; 16:23).
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Mathew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This does not appear to be talking about an eternal life of torment, but rather being destroyed.

23:33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

This also does not say anything about eternal torment.

Luke 10:15 And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!

This also does not state an eternal life of torment for humans.

Luke 16:23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

This verse, and story, are interesting. The rich man is in hell, but before hell is thrown into the lake of fire. The story takes place while his brothers are still on earth and could be warned to repent and escape. It appears to me that hell is like a waiting room of sorts, until the judgement, after which hell and it's contents are cast into the lake of fire. But still, no statement that he continues in his torment forever. It sure does sound like he is in torment at least up to the time of the judgement though.
 
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garee

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Stunnedbygrace said:
In my opinion, this isn't a good verse to prove humans are made up of an eternal spirit apart from the Spirit of God.
It talks of the word of God being like a sharp sword that cuts apart, divides or discerns between soul and spirit by revealing the innermost thoughts of a man.
Click to expand...

Yes it does not say those who have no soul as a way communing with God as two walking in agreement to God, that they live forever without a communitive relationship with God .

When there spirit returns to God who gave it ….its the end of the matter. The beginning of a matter is for those who had been given a new born again spirit and a new soul. They have a living hope of receiving their new incorruptible bodies. The dead know nothing they no longer have any part in anything under the sun to include suffering . Hell is a living suffering. sacrifice. Why look to the dead for the living ?
 
G

garee

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Stunnedbygrace said:
Mathew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This does not appear to be talking about an eternal life of torment, but rather being destroyed.

23:33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

This also does not say anything about eternal torment.

Luke 10:15 And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!

This also does not state an eternal life of torment for humans.

Luke 16:23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

This verse, and story, are interesting. The rich man is in hell, but before hell is thrown into the lake of fire. The story takes place while his brothers are still on earth and could be warned to repent and escape. It appears to me that hell is like a waiting room of sorts, until the judgement, after which hell and it's contents are cast into the lake of fire. But still, no statement that he continues in his torment forever. It sure does sound like he is in torment at least up to the time of the judgement though.
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There is no condemnation in those who have already passed from eternal damnation, to eternal life. Christ took on our judgment suffered the eternal wage a living sacrifice, satisfied the just commandments of his law . But he that believes not(no faith) is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We will not stand in trial as in double jeopardy and neither will God give the unbeliever back a spirit to stand trial as dead men's bones. God predetermined all that would come to Him and called them as many as he did call he could never cast out . The names are in the Lamb's book of life slain from before the foundation of the world .(not a after thought)


He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not "is condemned" already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.John 3:18

Condemed already, not the next day, but in the twinkling of the eye the name were written... every one of them
 
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

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Stunnedbygrace said:
Ben's not here so I'll talk with you. :)
Can you explain the ramifications of that spiritual death?
I think I understand the physical death part. His body began to age and die and the fruit of the tree of life was withheld so that he would not be able to eat and therefore physically live forever in his state.

But it's the spiritual death I would like to hear explained. Did he have some spirit apart from Gods' Spirit, the Eternal Spirit, in him, and then it died? Or did God stop indwelling him with His eternal Spirit?
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Soul [breath life], or physical life, pertains to literal, physical death, and "holy spirit" or everlasting life, pertains to the figurative usage of death. In the absence of soul [breath life], the body is truly and literally dead. In the absence of holy spirit, the person is figuratively, or spiritually, dead . . . .
1 John 5:12 He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.
Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [not literally a dead person without breath life but without holy spirit]
Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace are you saved;) . . . . we were spiritually dead in sins but God quickened us [made us alive, spiritually]
Jesus Christ reconciled us back to God because it is through faith in him that we are made alive spiritually, born again of God's spirit.

 
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OstrichSmiling

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Stunnedbygrace said:
I believe they went thata'way. :)

I believe they were all last seen here: and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. Mathew 27:52
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Thank you for explaining. :) Verse 53 tells us this only happened after Christ. Does this mean that all the dead were risen then?

Would this mean you believe in soul sleep?
 
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Stunnedbygrace

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peacefulbeliever said:
Soul [breath life], or physical life, pertains to literal, physical death, and "holy spirit" or everlasting life, pertains to the figurative usage of death. In the absence of soul [breath life], the body is truly and literally dead. In the absence of holy spirit, the person is figuratively, or spiritually, dead . . . .
1 John 5:12 He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.
Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [not literally a dead person without breath life but without holy spirit]
Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace are you saved;) . . . . we were spiritually dead in sins but God quickened us [made us alive, spiritually]
Jesus Christ reconciled us back to God because it is through faith in him that we are made alive spiritually, born again of God's spirit.
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I agree! Most participating in here do not agree with you. They think we are born an eternal spirit even before we receive the Holy Spirit.

This is why I asked ben the question about adam and eve. There is no way the dead can bring forth the dead.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

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OstrichSmiling said:
Thank you for explaining. :) Verse 53 tells us this only happened after Christ. Does this mean that all the dead were risen then?

Would this mean you believe in soul sleep?
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I don't believe that all dead were risen then but just those who had ever died with faith.

I think...no, I don't believe in soul sleep. At least not for those of faith. Revelation speaks of those under the altar in heaven. They do not sound like they are sleeping, blissfully unaware.

I think soul sleep was before the resurrection of Jesus and before they saw many of their dead walking around.

But what do you think Ostrich? Nice to meet you, by the way! :)
 
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Stunnedbygrace

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Stunnedbygrace said:
I agree! Most participating in here do not agree with you. They think we are born an eternal spirit even before we receive the Holy Spirit.

This is why I asked ben the question about adam and eve. There is no way the dead can bring forth the dead.
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Correction: There is no way the dead can bring forth the living.
 
O

OstrichSmiling

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Stunnedbygrace said:
I don't believe that all dead were risen then but just those who had ever died with faith.

I think...no, I don't believe in soul sleep. At least not for those of faith. Revelation speaks of those under the altar in heaven. They do not sound like they are sleeping, blissfully unaware.

I think soul sleep was before the resurrection of Jesus and before they saw many of their dead walking around.

But what do you think Ostrich? Nice to meet you, by the way! :)
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Thank you. :) Same here Stunnedbygrace, it is nice to meet you as well. :)
I agree with you by the way.
Is there a passage that tells us where those without faith ended up prior to Christ? I'm also looking for such a passage on my own.
 
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