Why does Eschatology divide the Church into 3 camps

It was a literal cloud and a literal physical body he ascended with and will come back the same. This is also literal. There is no reason to take these figuratively.

Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/1th.4.17.NLT

My point is that just because it is about clouds it is not automatically assumed to be symbolic.

It's possible that we who belong to Him will see Him begin to appear and descend and then be snatched up a few moments later. It's also possible that only believers will see this but that no one else will. I mean, it is possible. There's no reason why it has to be declared impossible. There's a lot we have to just wonder over. We don't know for sure.

And if I DID see Him begin to descend, getting bigger and bigger as He came closer to earth, believe me, I'd get so excited I'd NEED a new robe!

So every eye will see Him even those that crucified Him?

How does every eye on earth see something at the same time, is it a flat earth? and what about those that crucified Him, they are dead now, will they be resurrected?

And what about these, did Jesus lie?

Matt 10:23When they persecute you in onetown, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the SonofMan comes.

Matt 16: 28 Truly I tellyou, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Matt 26:
62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”e

So how many times will Jesus return?

if you believe we will return with him to rule, You have to fit time in there for us to go through our bema seat judgment, and recieve our glorified bodies and be prepared for what we will do.

You also have Jesus and the promise that whoever endured to the end will be saved, If we are raptured at the moment he returns to earth, No one will be left. Because they lost are destroyed, and all the found were resurrected.

just two issues I have with post trib rapture.

I have my own take on how many times Jesus will come again.
I think He will come two times...AGAIN!
Just as they didn't understand by prophecy that He was going to be coming twice - once to die and another time to reign - I think God will be making this repeat over again and He will come once in the clouds to gather us and a second time when He actually comes to earth and every eye sees Him.

I think I can glean from prophecy that this will happen, although I cannot be rabid in this suspicion of mine.

I see verses that do not and cannot make sense if they are all speaking of the same event. They DO however make sense if some of them are not describing the same event.

Putting helmet on for all the taunts of stupid, ridiculous, ignorant, and controlled by demons that will pelt me.

I believe our gathering together occurs before the tribulation. That gives 7 years for the marriage supper.

I believe that some saints will become saints during the tribulation. I believe some will see family members disappear and will then believe what they didn't believe prior to the gathering. I think they will have to refuse the mark and be beheaded or be in hiding.

I believe those saints removed pre-rapture will be returning with Jesus after the tribulation.

Excellent summation. The 144,000 will be Jewish preachers preaching to Israel of the coming of their Messiah. There will be tribulation saints could be that they will be slain during the tribulation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Where according to the following passage does gathering/rapture of the church happen and how?

Rev 12:
1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

7Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

......

13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Yes, it reads to me as if the 144,000 will be protected. They cannot be beheaded.

But no one can be so rabidly dogmatic concerning endtimes events that they condemn others to hell because they are "wrong".

But there is one thing I do if someone brings up a verse that seems to throw a monkey wrench into what I believe/suspect.
I immediately search the verse for any clues as to why I think it has to be pre-trib, or any clues as to if it has to be pre-1,000 year reign or after 1,000 year reign, etc.

Don't forget - they didn't understand that there would be two comings in the OT times and they didn't understand different timeframes were being spoken of in even the same verse. Prophecy switches back and forth and back again, and we aren't specifically told which time frame is being spoken of at any given time (sometimes we are given clues).

We HAVE the benefit of knowing a verse can be talking about one point in time and then suddenly switch to another point in time because we can see an example in the famous Isaiah verse Jesus stood to read. So given that we do have that knowledge, we should use it!!

This appears to me to be a condensed version of the history of Israel, the birth and death of Jesus, and with the last part culminating in the last days, when God will once again lead Israel into the desert and speak tenderly to her.

These witnesses have great supernatural ability to make fire consume men and to withhold rain for a long, long time. I think they are the two men who have not yet died from the OT.

And so the scripture will be fulfilled that says it is appointed to every man to die once. They must die to fulfill scripture.

Ok, here we go, lol.

For many things it doesn't matter.
But for deep doctrinal study and teaching it does matter.
Why?

Well, it's not so much about the 1,000 years.
It's all about "why" and "how" we choose our view on the 1,000 years.
The problem is, we "arrive" at our view of eschatology because of SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT approaches to hermeneutics... and our choice of approach affects LOTS and LOTS of other scripture.

So, the real issue regarding doctrinal study isn't the 1,000 years.
It's all about the hermeneutic principles that LEAD US TO THAT VIEW... and those affect lots of other things.

So, when someone tells me their pastor believes this or that about eschatology, I automatically know his position on lots and lots of other things, and the particular way he interprets a LOT of scripture... even his interpretation of a large amount of the Old Testament.

How we feel about the 1,000 years is just a REFLECTION of interpretive principles that affect a HUGE amount of the Bible.

You really can't even teach basic theology without getting into these interpretive principles... the same principles that lead us to a particular view on eschatology.


I still get along fine with people of other views... we just couldn't co-teach a theology class.
It would be havoc.


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I can see that Maxwell. If you are trying to teach someone a complete and systematic theological construct, and you are amillenial, those who believe in a pre-trib gathering will run into a problem with some of the scaffolding that is erected. And vice-versa.

But surely this happens in seminary too. How do they deal with it there?

not so sure, and remember those who are alive will be caught up (raptured) to meet with Christ in the sky, they will have never died.

they may be just two men,, John the baptist was elijah, yet he was not he came in the spirit of elijah, may be the same may not be, could be moses and elijah as many believe.