Oh goody another OSAS thread!

Yeah, the name calling is childish. I think most people, if not all I've read the last few days have been civil and quite patient myself. Not directed at any one person. Just noticed some like to try and entice argument above and beyond scripture.

I agree, as to why we should read the Word of God and make sure we are not one of the first three hearts in the parable of the sower. Only one produces faith, and many think they are saved, but they are not.

Hmmmmm....

Show me that those verses refer to a saved person?

Enlightened: To bring to light. Hey man, you need Jesus. I do? Yup... you're now enlightened.

Tasted: To experience. You took a bite of that pie? Yup? Can you still taste that Pie 7 hours later? Nope! Well, at least you experienced it then. Sorry the "flavor" did not last..

Partakers: Associate/participant. Hey man, you go to church last night. Oh yeah man, it really felt good. I don't know what was going on, but it was exciting. I felt something...

Powers: Miracles. You see that person get healed last night? Yeah, that was pretty cool.

So how did you like it all?

Dude, I don't know. It was interesting to say the least. I"m just not sure it's for me though. I just don't think I can believe in a God that allows pain and suffering and little babies to get sick. Naw, you keep it. I will keep what I have in my life. I"m the one in control of my life. If I get sick, doctors heal me. If I need anything, I make it happens. To me, I"m God of my own world. I just utterly refuse to believe in a God like that.

(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Easy Peezy!

And stopping believing is just that. I believe there's a God. I believe there was a man named Jesus. I actually believe the word is a good instruction manual for walking a good life. Please refer to my lengthy post about the parable if you will. Would love to know what you view is on it. (1,439) Not being sarcastic either. I actually enjoy your posts, as I haven't seen you get mean and hateful with anyone... yet! LOL! It's ones like you that I love to discuss with. You make very good points, but I think your points are weak, just as you think mine are. You also challenge me to dig into the Word even more. Can't go wrong with digging in the Word But it's fun discussing them and hoping that one or the other would come to the other persons understanding Keep posting. I'll be around awhile... God willing

The true colors of the fear based gospel always show themselves.

Heh, I think I hit his ignore list yesterday. Kinda funny to be honest. If they truly wanted to "expose" us false teachers, then they would continue to 'expose' us May God shed light and truth on them anyway. God bless you too brother.

I can agree with this, but there are many other Scriptures. I can bring into this conversation as well. It seems to me that there are far more Scriptures for eternal security than against it. And people who are against eternal security generally ignore them. But I appreciate that you have a very solid point regarding this Scriptyre’s context.

What’s interesting is that this plainly describes the Pharisees when Jesus was on the Earth, they experienced all of His powers, discovered who He was, tasted and saw, but didn’t come to Him. So we have a very solid evidence of this happening already.

Amen, I have no issue with any of them, I’m simply pointing out the fruit of that belief system. I believe PS has a good heart and he’s a true seeker, which is why I’ve spent so much time with him. Bless you my friend as well. May God continue to lead both of us in all His truth.

What's also interesting is that if one believes that these verses address believers who have backslidden, then they can't get re saved. We know the ONLY unpardonable sin is to reject the Holy Spirit... To reject Christ. So this alone should make anyone that believes these are saved people, re-evaluate their theology. Because even those that believe you can UNBELIEVE, they believe you can also believe again.

See the problem?

Okay here's my next thought on this.

I've been thinking about this and this Scripture came to my mind:

Philippians 2:12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

So in this Scripture we know for certain it's about believers because it says my beloved and it also tells us they have obeyed in the past. Now as I read this on the surface it appears that it's up to the person to follow God and to a degree I believe it is, but even deeper we see v13 tells us that it's God who is working in us: both the will and also the work itself.

Like my friend @mailmandan points out in his posts there are descriptive and prescriptive passages. And where we don't have a solid understanding of the power of the gospel and what Christ is working in us. We can read into Scripture thinking that we have to figure out how to make things happen instead of going back to the cross where God set us free to follow Him. Our design is actually to follow Christ. It's the enemy who blinds the minds of men.

I believe at the core of this thinking is a deeply flawed understanding of repentance. If we believe repentance is only about seeing our sin, repentance only comes into affect in our struggles instead of living a life of repentance. But if we believe repentance is about being continually tweaked - similar to a GPS - so that we can head into our desired direction repentance takes on a whole new meaning.

What is our mutual desired direction? Well God says that His purpose from the foundation of the world is that we would be conformed into the Image of His Son. So we know this is His purpose for our lives.

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Now as a Christian, the entire name of being a Christian is to follow Christ, but even deeper to know Him and be like Him. In fact, that's what eternal life is:

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Okay so in Romans 8:29 we see that God is conforming us to be like Him, but what does that look like?

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Now here's how I see this Scripture and we may disagree here, but this to me is a promise, but it's a promise that has already been accomplished. We are simply discovering what it looks like. Because on the cross Jesus predestined us to be justified and glorified to be a brother of Jesus.

Of course, this takes us to our mutual desired direction, do we desire what God desires for us? This is where renewing of the mind comes into play. Our mind is being renewed to the goodness and kindness of God. And as our mind is renewed to His goodness, we begin to desire what He desires. We want to be conformed into His image and we want His will for our life.

And in the places we don't desire it, well that's simply an invitation to discover the kindness of God at a higher level. And this is where the good news of God comes into play. He woos us with His love so that even though we are free, like Paul we call ourselves slaves of love. But it's something we do willingly and freely because we know His ways are better than anything else we could ever desire for ourselves. And I believe this is the beautiful journey of discovering Christ.

I'll probably go through your comment and make other comments, but I wanted to stop here and say this. Those verbs are aorist tense. Scholarly consensus was to translate aorist as past tense. That's problematic though because there are scripture verses where that is clearly impossible (can't remember specifically, so don't ask). There is a growing idea that the aorist tense is indefinite. Thus Romans 8:30 would look like this: "And those whom he predestines he also calls, and those whom he calls he also justifies, and those whom he justifies he also glorifies." This makes much more sense to me and avoids the problematic fact that we are not yet glorified. But here's something you can read about the matter to make up your own mind > The Greek and English Indefinite

Not me. Once it's over, it's over. You are not allowed to come back to repentance after you lose/forfeit your salvation through a return to unbelief.

I don't ignore any of the passages used to defend once saved always saved. In fact I challenged you to examine each so I can show you they do not become untrue in the light of non-once saved always saved. But my passages of scripture I use for non-once saved always saved become untrue when you interpret your once saved always saved passages the way you do.

Interesting, I love the CLT Bible. Simply because it wants to allow Scripture to interpret itself. This is one of the reasons I got very engrossed in the Greek myself. I don't have an issue with the Bible saying we are glorified because I believe God knows who belongs to Him. We are simply discovering it ourselves. He knows the end from the beginning. And when He says we've been predestined, this is talking about something that happened in God's mind prior to our understanding. It links up with the idea that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. God knew it. Similar to how God knew Abraham would need a ram in place of Isaac. He is Jehovah Jireh. He see what we need before we do.

Also in regards to other Scriptures about glorified I see a few in agreement to the idea we are "glorified".

1) 2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

In 2 Co 3:18, we see that we are already reflecting the glory of the Lord AND we are being transformed with His glory as well. So we see both happening here. We have it and we are increasing in it. So how I see this is all these things are happening because God in His purposes has already given it. We are simply discovering what He's already done.

2) John 17:22 I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one-- 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

In this Scripture, which this entire passage is very big in my foundational theological lens, we see Jesus gives us the same glory He was given. What's intriguing about this to me is that Jesus was given ALL glory - so when He gives us the same glory, He is given us ALL His glory because He calls us One as He is One as God. In this moment, God says He identifies us as Him and Him as us. To me this is being glorified in His image.

3) Isaiah 46:10 I distinguish the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come, saying: 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.

In this OT Scripture we discover God knows the end from the beginning. And His purpose is already in action. And He will accomplish all His good pleasure. So taking those keys let's look at a NT counterpart.

4) Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined usb for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

In this Scripture, I see we are blessed with every spiritual blessing (this could be similar to being glorified), we were chosen before foundation itself, according to the purpose of His will. We have been predestined to be adopted and this adoption comes with an inheritance. And I believe that inheritance is what Christ was given - we get to share in. And part of that is the same glory He was given. It's astounding I know, but this what I believe Scripture is revealing to us. And this interpretation lines up with Isaiah 46:10 as well.

Yes and I honor that about you Ralph. You're willing to look at Scriptures that disagree with your POV. We just simply disagree on certain interpretations, but I do learn from your POV. So I appreciate you.

No, the fact he knows them shows they belong to him. But they do not know him in a mature knowing of him. These are the very kinds of believers who can fall away--weak, immature believers who have not grown up to a mature knowing of God. And they are doing just that--falling away from Christ. Paul is trying to rescue them before it's too late.



You're making my point exactly! The Galatians are/were saved. He calls them children of Promise. Children of promise who are toying with the law for justification. He's imploring them to come back to Jesus. They're literally playing with fire. It's not too late to turn them back to Jesus and away from the law they have been toying with. God hasn't turned they over to their unbelief yet.

Just a FYI. The 2nd blessed in verse 3 is aorist. Translated as indefinite it becomes "the one who blesses us". That by far is much more meaningful to me because it's something happening now rather than happened in the past. Think about how it changes one's perspective.

Amen Ralph.


This foundational principle of salvation couldn't be any more clear.


Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while.


Why anyone could come up with the idea that someone who no longer believes, still retains the same benefit as those who faithfully believe to end, is insane.




JPT

Before I write a long post.

Are you open to another intepretation using the context for 1 Co 15:2 and 1 John 2:24?