The Big Revelation Quest

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Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#41
Mar 12, 2015
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#41
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
The 7th trumpet announces the resurrection and the wrath of GOD.
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Hello again HeRose,

The 7th trumpet has nothing to do with the resurrection. I would suggest that you stop getting your information from YouTube and from web-sites.

The "last trumpet" mentioned in I Cor.15:52 is not synonymous with the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments, as they are two completely unrelated events. Someone, somewhere, got the bright idea that since the 7th trumpet was the last of the trumpet judgments, they labeled it as "the last trumpet" of I Cor.15:52. However, the "last trumpet" is referring to a specific type of trumpet which is not mentioned and which will sound when the church is gathered. The 7th trumpet on the other hand, is a trumpet of judgment. One is a blessing, the other is God's wrath. Furthermore, there is nothing in the context in or around the sounding of the 7th trumpet that even suggests that the church is being gathered. In addition, if the church were to be gathered at the 7th trumpet, it would mean that the church would have gone through the seals and all of the trumpet judgments, which again represent God's wrath, regardless of whether you believe it or not.

I would also remind you that, the word "trumpet" is not unique as linking the "last trumpet" of I Cor.15:52 to the 7th trumpet, any more than the trumpet mentioned in Matt.24:31 when Jesus sends out His angels.

The bottom line is that, the "last trumpet" which sounds when the church is gathered, is not the same as the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments. It is just a misinterpreted and misapplied.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#42
Mar 12, 2015
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#42
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
I disagree. The 7 seals were opened nearly 2000 years ago. They revealed and set in motion events that would proceed until the very end which is described in very general terms in the 6th seal. The first 6 trumpets are warnings to the world that wrath is approaching, and the 7th (the last trump) announces that it has arrived..
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The seals, trumpets and bowls have not yet begun. These three sets of wrath is what God is going to use to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but you need to look to the word of God for the truth and not the teachings that are out there. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place after the church has been removed, which is the next event to take place.
 
J

Joseppi

Senior Member
#43
Jan 4, 2018
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#43
Stunnedbygrace said:
If the saints are snatched up to be with Him, they are no longer on earth. They aren't left behind...
Yes, I realize you don't believe it happens, but if someone does believe it, they don't believe any saints are left behind...
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Again you are confused.

It is the rapture lovers that teach that saints are left behind.
The rapturists claim that during the great tribulation some of the left behind become saints without relationship to the church and without the Holy Ghost.

How warped is that?
 
J

Joseppi

Senior Member
#44
Jan 4, 2018
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#44
IXApollyonXI said:
Jesus will come as a thief in the night. Meaning that you won't be aware of it, until it's too late.
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Jesus doesn’t come as a thief in the night for the church.
He comes as a thief in the night from the viewpoint of the kingdom of darkness.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#45
Mar 12, 2015
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#45
Nehemiah6 said:
There's no need to confuse the "trump of God" (which is for the Rapture) with the 7th trumpet (which announces severe judgments on the unbelieving and ungodly world).

One would think that Christians know the difference between salvation and wrath. Those two trumpets have nothing in common.
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You are correct Nehemiah6 in that, these two trumpets have nothing to do with each other, except for they both use the word "trumpet." Unfortunately, the word of God is being attacked on every Biblical subject in these last days. Satan has even found Christians as his foot soldiers to carry these lies into the church and thereby distorting the word of God and misleading other believers.

Someone sees the word "trumpet" and they just apply it any trumpet that supports their position, while ignoring the rest of scripture. They do the same thing with "this generation" and "there be some standing here who will not taste of death" as well as, "the comma is in the wrong place." And it goes on and on and on. They've been deceived without even realizing it.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#46
Mar 12, 2015
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#46
Joseppi said:
Jesus doesn’t come as a thief in the night for the church.
He comes as a thief in the night from the viewpoint of the kingdom of darkness.
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"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

In the parable, the owner of the house is representing the believer in Christ, with the thief representing Christ. If the owner of the house knew at what time the thief was coming he would have kept watch. But since he doesn't know when the thief is going to come, then he, the owner, must always be watching. In the same way, since the Lord is going to come like a thief, then believers must also be always watching and anticipating the Lord's appearing to gather us.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#47
Sep 4, 2012
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#47
Ahwatukee said:
The seals, trumpets and bowls have not yet begun. These three sets of wrath is what God is going to use to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but you need to look to the word of God for the truth and not the teachings that are out there. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place after the church has been removed, which is the next event to take place.
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Actually I got it from the bible and the holy spirit. I can't stand to read what other people write about Revelation because no one knows what they're talking about. GOD delivered me from the confusion that permeates the dispensational teaching that you are repeating.
 
J

Joseppi

Senior Member
#48
Jan 4, 2018
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#48
Ahwatukee said:
You are correct Nehemiah6 in that, these two trumpets have nothing to do with each other, except for they both use the word "trumpet." Unfortunately, the word of God is being attacked on every Biblical subject in these last days. Satan has even found Christians as his foot soldiers to carry these lies into the church and thereby distorting the word of God and misleading other believers.

Someone sees the word "trumpet" and they just apply it any trumpet that supports their position, while ignoring the rest of scripture. They do the same thing with "this generation" and "there be some standing here who will not taste of death" as well as, "the comma is in the wrong place." And it goes on and on and on. They've been deceived without even realizing it.
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I’m sure all readers can see that it is you that know that the resurrection of the church of Jesus is at the last trump and that proves the rapture doctrine is false.
So you say the last trump isn’t the last trump, and then give your philosophical reasons why you disagree with scripture.

The problem is that you refuse to let scripture correct your thinking and so, off into la la land with private interpretations about end time prophecy.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#49
Mar 12, 2015
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#49
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
I disagree. The seals and trumpets are not the wrath of GOD (7 vials of wrath).
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The above is just your opinion without any scripture to back it up. With just the 4th seal alone, a fourth of the earths population will be killed, which based on the current population would be over 1.7 billion people within that first 3 1/2 years, with Jesus as the One opening the seals, ergo, He is responsible for the fatalities they being apart of His wrath.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#50
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#50
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Actually I got it from the bible and the holy spirit. I can't stand to read what other people write about Revelation because no one knows what they're talking about. GOD delivered me from the confusion that permeates the dispensational teaching that you are repeating.
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Well, I have been studying end-time events, the book of Revelation and all related scriptures for over 40 years, therefore, what I do know about end-time events is correct. However, I know that your eschatology is in error, not being scriptural. You're listening to the distorted teachings that are out in the world.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#51
Jul 18, 2017
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#51
Ralph- said:
'Last' trumpet.
'Seventh (last) trumpet.

What do you mean they have nothing in common?
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The "last trumpet" for the saints is for the completion of their salvation.

The "last trumpet" for the ungodly is for the ultimate outpouring of God's wrath.

Now people should ask themselves what can possibly be common between these two extremes.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#52
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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113
#52
Ralph- said:
'Last' trumpet.
'Seventh (last) trumpet.

What do you mean they have nothing in common?
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They have nothing in common in that, the "last trumpet" and the "7th trumpet" are exclusive of one another, i.e. they are two unrelated trumpets. Someone just applied them to being the same event because of the word "trumpet." We could do the same thing with the "loud trumpet" which will sound when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and sends His angels out to gather the elect, except they are also different trumpets. People just circumvent and misapply scripture wherever it supports their positions. Therefore, those who believe in a mid-trib gathering of the church, apply the "last trumpet" as being synonymous with the "7th trumpet" to support their position. Yet they do this while ignoring the other obvious problems:

Last Trumpet = signals the blessed hope, the gathering of the church

7th Trumpet = the last trumpet of seven trumpet judgments, with no mention of the church being gathered

The last trumpet sounds before the first seal is opened, which initiates God's wrath. The 7th trumpet judgment is apart of God's wrath and which completes two thirds of God's. The obvious problem here is that if the church were gathered at the 7th trumpet, it would put the living church through both the seals and the trumpet judgments, which is the wrath of God and which we are not appointed to suffer.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#53
Sep 4, 2012
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692
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#53
Nehemiah6 said:
The "last trumpet" for the saints is for the completion of their salvation.

The "last trumpet" for the ungodly is for the ultimate outpouring of God's wrath.

Now people should ask themselves what can possibly be common between these two extremes.
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Pretty simple. The trumpet sounds and the dead in Christ are raised to meet him in the air while the vials of wrath begin to be poured out upon the wicked on Earth. Great show! Bring some popcorn!
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#54
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#54
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Pretty simple. The trumpet sounds and the dead in Christ are raised to meet him in the air while the vials of wrath begin to be poured out upon the wicked on Earth.
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Can you really imagine such a ludicrous scenario?

Christians at least should exercise some clear thinking.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#55
Sep 4, 2012
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#55
Nehemiah6 said:
Can you really imagine such a ludicrous scenario?
Christians at least should exercise some clear thinking.
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Que? Please explain how it's ludicrous. That should get you thinking (clearly, I hope)
 
tanakh

tanakh

Senior Member
#56
Dec 1, 2015
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#56
Stunnedbygrace said:
You think that someone who thinks our gathering might be prior to the great tribulation is opposing Jesus?
As for your last sentence, I hated Jesus at one time and He didn't hate me back but loved me and desired to have me...

You have turned endtimes views into a salvational issue. They aren't a salvational issue...
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What you should have said is that it SHOULDNT be a salvation issue but some on this site give a very strong impression that they
believe their particular position is not only 100% correct but their salvation and everyone elses depends on believing it. Its seen by them as a Hallmark of salvation.
 
J

Joseppi

Senior Member
#57
Jan 4, 2018
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#57
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh


Ahwatukee said:
In the parable, the owner of the house is representing the believer in Christ, with the thief representing Christ.
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The goodman in the parable is the unbeliever who doesn’t watch and has his house broken into.

First Je

Ahwatukee said:
If the owner of the house knew at what time the thief was coming he would have kept watch.
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Jesus said, had known in what watch the thief would come

He would’ve kept watch during the time of the predicted watch.

Instead he reasoned that he didn’t need to keep watch.
Which thinking Jesus warned you about. You think you know that Jesus is coming before great tribulation, on your click, and so, you end up reasoning that you have no need to watch.
But, Jesus commanded us to watch and pray.

Ahwatukee said:
But since he doesn't know when the thief is going to come, then he, the owner, must always be watching.
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In the same way, since the Lord is going to come like a thief, then believers must also be always watching and anticipating the Lord's appearing to gather us.[/QUOTE]
Stunnedbygrace said:
I said endtime views are not a salvational issue. It is not necessary to know everything about prophecy or endtimes to be saved and receive the Holy Spirit. And if you think Jesus returns pre, during or after is not a requirement for receiving His Spirit. That is not the gospel, Joseppi. No one has perfect knowledge and you cannot demand that they must have perfect knowledge or they can't be saved. No man on earth is without some errors or he would be perfect and would know and understand God perfectly and would be in need of no more renewing or growth.
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For lack of knowledge people perish. The scripture says.

And souls will be lost due to lack of knowledge of end times things. The parable of the ten virgins is a warning to all Christians.

The prophecies are given to us to give us knowledge lest any be lost.

I suspect you are taking the casual, once saved always saved, approach to ignoring the need for understanding.
 
J

Joseppi

Senior Member
#58
Jan 4, 2018
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#58
Joseppi said:
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh



The goodman in the parable is the unbeliever who doesn’t watch and has his house broken into.

First Je

Jesus said, had known in what watch the thief would come

He would’ve kept watch during the time of the predicted watch.

Instead he reasoned that he didn’t need to keep watch.
Which thinking Jesus warned you about. You think you know that Jesus is coming before great tribulation, on your click, and so, you end up reasoning that you have no need to watch.
But, Jesus commanded us to watch and pray.


In the same way, since the Lord is going to come like a thief, then believers must also be always watching and anticipating the Lord's appearing to gather us.
Click to expand...
For lack of knowledge people perish. The scripture says.

And souls will be lost due to lack of knowledge of end times things. The parable of the ten virgins is a warning to all Christians.

The prophecies are given to us to give us knowledge lest any be lost.

I suspect you are taking the casual, once saved always saved, approach to ignoring the need for understanding.[/QUOTE]
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
The 7th trumpet announces the resurrection and the wrath of GOD.
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That is the truth.
 
J

Joseppi

Senior Member
#59
Jan 4, 2018
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#59
Ahwatukee said:
Hello HeRoseFromTheDead,

Scripture would disagree with you in only identifying the seven bowls as only being the wrath of God. Regarding this, consider the following scripture:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

In the scripture above, the seven bowls are said to be last because with them God's wrath is completed. Therefore, if the bowls are last, then other wrath would have to come before them. In other words if something is last, then something had to come before. The seals, trumpets would be the other wrath that takes place prior to the bowl judgments.

In further support that the seals and the trumpets are apart of God's wrath, the seals are being opened by Christ, which leads into the trumpet judgments, meaning that He is the One responsible for the resulting destruction and fatalities. The majority of the book of Revelation from chapter 6 thru 18 with all of its related information, is representing God's wrath.

The Opening of the Sixth Seal:
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

The above is announced after the opening of the 6th seal. The words "has come" is in the aorist, which refers to God's wrath in its entirety, i.e. the seals that will have previously taken place prior to the announcement, as well as the trumpets and bowl judgments which follow, all which encompass God's wrath.

The Sounding of the Seventh Trumpet:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.

The Seven Bowl Judgments:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

As you can see, each set of judgments (seals, trumpets and bowls) are referred to as being God's wrath.

With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third, respectively, over half the earths population will be killed during that first 3 1/2 years.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments should be viewed as the collective means by which God is going to carry out His wrath.
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Present the scripture that states precisely when the wrath of God begins.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#60
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#60
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Que? Please explain how it's ludicrous. That should get you thinking (clearly, I hope)
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Here is how ludicrous it is to believe that the saints are being resurrected and brought to Heaven while all of this is happening as shown below (and there is absolutely no mention of saints being resurrected during this time either):

16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood...

16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared...

16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
 
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