Acts /1cor 12, 13, 14 baptsim in the HG and gifts of the Spirit

It is not written about Thomas, so is what you are claiming just an assumption. But not scripture based.
About Samson I agree, the Holy Spirit was timewise upon him, but not constantly.

i'm sorry it is The context. The the confession is the main point John 20 by Thomas . You say it is an assumption Ok then you agree that Jesus did give the Holy Spirit to the other HE breathed on in John 20:22, Thomas had to wait until Acts 2 how is that not an assumption ?

Brother, the context of John 20 says nothing about that John received the Holy Spirit. I said, that I dont know it, so as everybody cant 100% say what it mean. One explaination I found from Walvoord and Zuck. About John 20, 21-23
" Jesus then recommissioned the disciples as His apostles: He was sending them as His representatives, as the Father had sent Him (cf.17,18). They were sent with His Authority to preach, Teach, and do miraculus signs ( Matt.28,16-20;Luke 24,47-49). For their new Commission they needed spiritual Power. "So he breathed on them and said, receive the Holy Spirit. " The Image and wording of breathing on them recalls God's creative work in making Adam ( Gen.2:7). Now this Post- Resurrection "breathing" was a new Kind of creative work for they would soon become new creations (Eph.2,8-10). This reception of the Spirit was an anticipation of the day of Pentecost and should be understood as a partial limited gift of Knowledge,understanding, and Empowerment until Pentecost "

Their understanding of John 20,22 seems different to Yours. So there it seems a different understanding of John 20,22 among the christianity. And it seems that only the Pentecost and charismatic movements defend it as receiving the Holy Spirit for Salvation. Otherwise you could not explain your view of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It stands and falls with John 20,22!

Brother, the context of John 20 says nothing about that John received the Holy Spirit. I said, that I dont know it, so as everybody cant 100% say what it mean. One explaination I found from Walvoord and Zuck. About John 20, 21-23
" Jesus then recommissioned the disciples as His apostles: He was sending them as His representatives, as the Father had sent Him (cf.17,18). They were sent with His Authority to preach, Teach, and do miraculus signs ( Matt.28,16-20;Luke 24,47-49). For their new Commission they needed spiritual Power. "So he breathed on them and said, receive the Holy Spirit. " The Image and wording of breathing on them recalls God's creative work in making Adam ( Gen.2:7). Now this Post- Resurrection "breathing" was a new Kind of creative work for they would soon become new creations (Eph.2,8-10). This reception of the Spirit was an anticipation of the day of Pentecost and should be understood as a partial limited gift of Knowledge,understanding, and Empowerment until Pentecost "

Their understanding of John 20,22 seems different to Yours. So there it seems a different understanding of John 20,22 among the christianity. And it seems that only the Pentecost and charismatic movements defend it as receiving the Holy Spirit for Salvation. Otherwise you could not explain your view of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It stands and falls with John 20,22!

this is your issue you say "And it seems that only the Pentecost and charismatic movements defend it as receiving the Holy Spirit for Salvation."

If you are honnest then you know I have never said such a thing nor has it been said by me on this OP.
you make statements based on your bias and not from what was really said.

The word of God is clear , salvation does not hapen without the Holy Spirit . Everyone recieves the Holy Spirit at salvation. as a pentacostel for more than 35 years that has been the context of the doctrine concerning thos eof that denomnation.

however, that is your issue not mine. the word of God says:

in John 20:22 That Jesus Breathede on them and said Recieve the Holy Spirit.". you have not explained what Jesus did or what it means . If you have more understanding to explain this verse I respectfully ask you to bring it. If not. Not inerject false narrtives concerning other groups you have issues with.

JUst do the following Please

1. what did Jesus mean in John 20:22
2. why did Jesus Breathed on them
3. if they did not have the Holy in this verse why did Jesus say this?

PLease answer if not then you and I are done

1+2+3 I gave you an answer from Walvoord and Zuck. And I also said that nobody Really knows it, because you see it different then Walvoord and Zuck.
Who else then pentecostal and charismatic Scholars Teach your view?
But your view you must defend for to teach the pentecostal doctrine of baptism with the Holy Spirit. Otherwise you have no base for this teaching. So i dont expect that you agree with me.
But you Can not tell me from the scripture that John 20,22 speaks from the baptising with the Holy Spirit and you have also no scripture based Proof what happens with Thomas ore with Matthias who later was Selected to the apostles.
The pentecostal and further the charismatic teaching about the baptism with the Holy Spirit is based on an assumption, but not on Gods truth.

1. what did Jesus mean in John 20:22
2. why did Jesus Breathed on them
3. if they did not have the Holy in this verse why did Jesus say this?

Jesus was giving them instruction for when the Holy Spirit would be given (on the day of Pentecost).

Acts 1:
4) And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

In John 20:22, the Holy Spirit had not yet been given.

then please explain why Jesus said what He did in John 20:22 . What is clear is they now Knew Jesus was God that was known before Pentacost and that revelation only came by the Holy Spirit as 1cor 12 :3 tells us . Thomas made one of the most profound confression in Verse 28 of Chapter 20 of Johns Gospel that thrologians use that one verse with many other to prove the deity of Christ. You cannot have it both ways . Jesus said in Acts 1:8 you would recieve power to be a witness. He did not say to be saved did HE ? Why? because they were already saved. They already had the Holy Spirit. But they have not been empowered. All Power of the Holy Spirit was with Christ. IN the man Jesus . That was testified in John Gospel chapter 1:32 . The Holy Spirt had been given He was not in them but on them.

The Holy Spirit had been given...He was not in them but on them.

(I added the "..." basically because I think there was some sort of punctuation intended)


CS1,

That particular quote seems of significance. I have no problem with the idea of the Holy Spirit being ON someone prior to the outpouring on the day of Pentecost. I don't even have a problem with the Spirit being IN someone on occasion prior to the day of Pentecost. The Spirit came and went as he saw fit throughout the old testament.

What I understand the promise (of the Holy Ghost) to be is that of God making his abode with us. The Spirit coming in to stay, not just coming to pass...coming to stay.

And I can see where Jesus is breathing on them and commanding them to receive the Holy Ghost in John 20, but I don't see it stated that they actually completed that command in John 20. Especially if you believe that "receiving" the holy ghost is the same as "being baptized with" the Holy Ghost. Do you think those two things are the same or different?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

The gift of the Holy Spirit was not given until the day of Pentecost.

Acts 1:
4) And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8) But ye shall receive power, after [when] that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

I have not gave no answer from any walvoord and zuck I do not even know them nor did I see them is the 66 Books of the bible. You assume much sir, and I would much appreciate if you would not create a narrative about what you think one has given me. Maybe if you asked have you heard of Walvoord & Zuck You would have known I have never heard of them.

You did not answer my question about John 20:22 the only one assuming is you sir. If you do not see the confession of Thomas in John chapter 20:28 as Holy Spirit inspired , when every non-pentacostel denomnation does as a normitive then you have the issue . That understanding is not pentacostel lol it is Biblical context. As far as matthias goes I agree there is not much said about Him however, we do have more in context to Thomas. Where the bible is silent we too should be silent . So I'm not sure about Matthias because the word of God does not give enough to make a clear understanding . BUt this is not the case of Thomas .

Context .

I mentioned Walvoord and Zuck as an example. There are many meanings about John 20,22, one of the I States from them and also you gave me Yours. It is difficult to create a doctrine ore teaching from Bible Verses which are not clear. Es you said, where the Bible is Silent we should be also.
The context of John 20,22 - 29 says nothing about that Thomas received the Holy Spirit as it is described in Vers 22. In my view it is Eisegese ( Reading a view into the text) instead of Reading what the Text says. You useing John 20,22 for to explain Why there are 2 baptizings with the Holy Spirit. The First to receive the Holy Spirit for Salvation and the Second for to be empowered for the ministrie.
This is for me not a serious useing of the scripture. And finally a man Made Doctrine not based on what the Bible teaches. And if I am Not wrong this teaching is only to find among pentecostals and charismatics. But not to be found before 1900.
And maby I should Add that, not all promisses which was given to the Apostles we find for us today.

I would like to have a biblical Discussion on these two topic. without insults , false narratives , and strawmen created by both side for and against the subject. I would like to cover both what I think the bible and much study i have done over the many years. You do not have to agree with me but, I would like for you all to please provide contextual meaning to your response. If this is not possiable then you are free not to post. I accept all questions anyone will ask but I will not hear rudness or insults .

Baptisim of Holy Spirit :
I would like to study the powerful experience for the super natural growth on the "church" in the apostolic and post-apostolic ages of the "church". Which has been the principal cause of mighty revivals that have swept the world since the turn of the 20th century. I am not suggesting, teaching, or attempting to exalt the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the gifts HE gives to the "Church" above the Redemptive Work of Christ. The # 1 Work of the Holy Spirit is exalting Christ (John 3:16).

the greatest promise to the World is " whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life". but the greatest promise to the "Church" is: "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you" (Acts 1:8)

The Baptizer in the Holy Spirit is none other than our Lord Jesus Christ

The Holy Spirit is what empowers the "Church".

What the baptism of the Holy Spirit is NOT:

1. It is not " The Second Definite Work of Grace" I have heard some use this term but I have not seen it in the bible nor have more qualfied teachers than I. If there is second then maybe a 3rd or 4th too? I believe in the continual growth in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Pet 3:18)

2. it is not the Second Blessing again if there is a second why not a 3rd or 4th? I do not believe this to be a biblical expression used in the bible.
3. it is not Sanctification That is long topic and I will just say that right now but "Sanctification" is part of the Chritians daily
life. (LV 27:14)
4. it is not the New Birth The Baptisim with the Holy Spirit is subsequent to, and distinct from , The Lords Regenerative Work.

"The Baptisim with the Holy Spirit" the scriptural name for the Holy Spirit coming into the lives of men & women who are Christians .Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Acts 1:5 The name of this expireance in the Bible as a normitive is " The Baptisim with the Holy Ghost/Spirit".

The apostles were converted under the ministry of Jesus (John 1:35-50; Luke 10:20; John 13:10,11 15:3) they were told to wait (tarry) and were instantly filled with the Spirit about two years later (luke 24:49;Acts 1:13,14; 2:1-4)
The samaritans Acts 8:5-8,12 Acts 8:14-17 records thier expirence
The 12 men at Ephesus who were believers Acts 19:2

Some teach and believe that the Holy Spirit was poured out once for all on the Day of Pentecost, and we not expect nothing more. The prophecy of joel has been fulfilled. But is that what happened?

Peter in quoting Joel 2:29, did not say: "Now is fulfilled that which was spoken by the prophet Joel".

If he had, there would be nothing more to expect. The prophecy would be fulfilled. But What Peter did say:
"This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" Peter than explained this promise was for all men and women not just those in the upper room.

I will stop here and pick up soon give time for questions and comments

The Holy Spirit Himself is a gift we receive from God the moment we receive Christ as our Savior.

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Gods word never claims that the Holy Spirit would not be in our hearts nor that we would be left comfortless. It does tell us that three very specific gifts would end. It is the end of these three that causes so much strife in the modern church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

A question. When Jesus sent His disciples out and gave them power (Luke 9:1) was He giving them the Holy Spirit then or did they not receive the Holy Spirit until pentacost? Where they saved already? I know, that's 2 questions. Thanks for any responses.

I would like to have a biblical Discussion on these two topic. without insults , false narratives , and strawmen created by both side for and against the subject. I would like to cover both what I think the bible and much study i have done over the many years. You do not have to agree with me but, I would like for you all to please provide contextual meaning to your response. If this is not possiable then you are free not to post. I accept all questions anyone will ask but I will not hear rudness or insults .

Baptisim of Holy Spirit :
I would like to study the powerful experience for the super natural growth on the "church" in the apostolic and post-apostolic ages of the "church". Which has been the principal cause of mighty revivals that have swept the world since the turn of the 20th century. I am not suggesting, teaching, or attempting to exalt the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the gifts HE gives to the "Church" above the Redemptive Work of Christ. The # 1 Work of the Holy Spirit is exalting Christ (John 3:16).

the greatest promise to the World is " whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life". but the greatest promise to the "Church" is: "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you" (Acts 1:8)

The Baptizer in the Holy Spirit is none other than our Lord Jesus Christ

The Holy Spirit is what empowers the "Church".

What the baptism of the Holy Spirit is NOT:

1. It is not " The Second Definite Work of Grace" I have heard some use this term but I have not seen it in the bible nor have more qualfied teachers than I. If there is second then maybe a 3rd or 4th too? I believe in the continual growth in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Pet 3:18)

2. it is not the Second Blessing again if there is a second why not a 3rd or 4th? I do not believe this to be a biblical expression used in the bible.
3. it is not Sanctification That is long topic and I will just say that right now but "Sanctification" is part of the Chritians daily
life. (LV 27:14)
4. it is not the New Birth The Baptisim with the Holy Spirit is subsequent to, and distinct from , The Lords Regenerative Work.

"The Baptisim with the Holy Spirit" the scriptural name for the Holy Spirit coming into the lives of men & women who are Christians .Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Acts 1:5 The name of this expireance in the Bible as a normitive is " The Baptisim with the Holy Ghost/Spirit".

The apostles were converted under the ministry of Jesus (John 1:35-50; Luke 10:20; John 13:10,11 15:3) they were told to wait (tarry) and were instantly filled with the Spirit about two years later (luke 24:49;Acts 1:13,14; 2:1-4)
The samaritans Acts 8:5-8,12 Acts 8:14-17 records thier expirence
The 12 men at Ephesus who were believers Acts 19:2

Some teach and believe that the Holy Spirit was poured out once for all on the Day of Pentecost, and we not expect nothing more. The prophecy of joel has been fulfilled. But is that what happened?

Peter in quoting Joel 2:29, did not say: "Now is fulfilled that which was spoken by the prophet Joel".

If he had, there would be nothing more to expect. The prophecy would be fulfilled. But What Peter did say:
"This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" Peter than explained this promise was for all men and women not just those in the upper room.

I will stop here and pick up soon give time for questions and comments

Here's what scripture says. All believers have the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You cannot believe in the true Christ apart from having the Holy Spirit.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was for the Apostles only and those they laid their hands on. Except for the Jewish outpouring on the Apostles only. And on the gentiles at Cornelius house.

“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” Acts 8:18 (KJV 1900)

To prove otherwise, you must show from scripture the gifts of tongues and healing came in another way. Nobody has done this yet.

The prayer of faith heals the sick. This did not expire with the Charismatic gifts.

Nobody has yet to show evidence of the gifts in a Smartphone video despite the claims for the gifts. The Apostles raised the dead on several occasions and commanded twisted limbs to regain strength as proof of their apostleship. Their office ended when God placed their names in the foundations of heavenly Jerusalem.