1st john 5:7

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,105
39
48
#1
Question: Is it true that 1 John 5:7 is not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the King James Bible?

Answer: 1 John 5:7 belongs in the King James Bible and was preserved by faithful Christians. But the passage was removed from many Greek manuscripts, because of the problems it seemed to cause.

It is true that there is a small number of Scriptures that are not the same between the King James Bible and the so-called "Majority" Greek text. There are a number of reasons for this:

1. The so-called "Majority" text was not really based on the majority of texts, but rather a relatively small number of manuscripts. The last person to try to find the differences between the majority of Greek manuscripts, Dr. Von Soden, did not collate more than 400 of the more than 5,000 Greek texts. In other words, what is commonly called the "Majority" Greek text is not a collation of the majority of manuscripts at all. 2. The "Majority" Greek text is also the main Greek text used by the Eastern Orthodox religion. They had a vested interest in changing (or deleting) some texts. More on this in a moment. 3. 1 John itself is not in a large number of extant Greek manuscripts.

So why then is 1 John 5:7 in the King James Bible, but not in many of the existing Greek manuscripts? To understand the answer, we must look at the history of what happened shortly after the Bible was written.

The Greek and Roman Institutions

During the early growth of the Christian church, ministers (whether saved or not) wrote down doctrines that they said were Christian and Biblical. Starting after the death of the apostles (about 100 AD) many people taught the lie that Jesus was not God the Son and Son of God, or that Jesus became God at His baptism, or the false doctrine that the Holy Spirit was not God or was not eternal.

The growing religion that became known as Roman Catholic, after many debates eventually agreed on the doctrine of the Trinity. So they had no reason to remove 1 John 5:7 from their Bibles, since it supported what they taught.

But the Greek Eastern Orthodox religion was combating a heresy called "Sabellianism," and would have found it easier to combat the heresy by simply removing the troubling passage from their Bibles.

A Trail of Evidence

But during this same time, we find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse: 200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas 250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin) 350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.] 350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.] 350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione 398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism 415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ) 450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are: A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven" B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.] C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.] 500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.] 550 AD Old Latin ms r has it 550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.] 750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it 800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.] 1000s AD miniscule 635 has it 1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin 1300s AD miniscule 629 has it 157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse 1500 AD ms 61 has the verse Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.

The Vaudois

Now the "Waldensian," or "Vaudois" Bibles stretch from about 157 to the 1400s AD. The fact is, according to John Calvin's successor Theodore Beza, that the Vaudois received the Scriptures from missionaries of Antioch of Syria in the 120s AD and finished translating it into their Latin language by 157 AD. This Bible was passed down from generation, until the Reformation of the 1500s, when the Protestants translated the Vaudois Bible into French, Italian, etc. This Bible carries heavy weight when finding out what God really said. John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards believed, as most of the Reformers, that the Vaudois were the descendants of the true Christians, and that they preserved the Christian faith for the Bible-believing Christians today.

Who Has the Most to Gain? Who Has the Most to Lose?

The evidence of history shows us that the Roman Catholic religion was relentless in its effort to destroy the Vaudois and their Bible. It took them until the 1650s to finish their hateful attacks. But the Vaudois were successful in preserving God's words to the days of the Reformation.

Now we have to ask ourselves a question: Who had the most to gain by adding to or taking away from the Bible? Did the Vaudois, who were being killed for having their Bibles, have anything to gain by adding to or taking from the words of God? Compromise is what the Roman religion wanted! Had the Vaudois just followed the popes, their lives would have been much easier. But they counted the cost. This was not politics; it was their life and soul. They above all people would not want to change a single letter of the words they received from Antioch of Syria. And they paid for this with their lives.

What about the "scholars" at Alexandria, Egypt? We already know about them. They could not even make their few 45 manuscripts agree. How could we believe they preserved God's words?

The Reformation itself owes a lot to these Christians in the French Alps. They not only preserved the Scriptures, but they show to what lengths God would go to keep his promise (Psalm 12:6-7).

And that's only part of the story about the preservation of God's words.
 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,105
39
48
#2
I was reading this thought id share insights ?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
616
113
70
Alabama
#3
Actually, no Greek MSS contains verse seven in the body of the text until 1520. There are some 300 Gk mss. of 1Jn. Of these, the longer reading appears in only eight very late mss, one of which is mss 221 which dates prior to the 10th century A.D. Of these eight, four have it only as a marginal note as in the case of mss 221. It does not appear in the body of any Gk. text until it was added in mss. 61 in 1520. The first time this verse appears in ANY mss comes from Priscillian, a Spanish Bishop who lived from 340 - 385. He was the fist one to add this longer reading to the text of his Latin mss in about 380. Thus, it continued to appear in other Latin mss over the years. The mss evidence supporting verse seven is the weakest of any questioned text I have ever researched. It simply should not be there.
 
R

reject-tech

Guest
#4
Would you believe it if I told you that the verse is there to specifically to tell you that God's word is valid even when men try to muck with it by adding and removing verses?

And if not, suggested reading is verse 9-10

When they try and change it, God makes sure it remains infallible.

A real living timeless angel, right there on the page, right in front of your eyes.

Just like the one in the Revelation of Jesus, that was either added or removed by man, contrary to the instructions in the very book itself.

"Behold, I send my messenger before thy face"
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
616
113
70
Alabama
#5
Verse seven does not teach an un-truth. Indeed it does not teach anything that is not found in the rest of scripture. The problem is that the introduction of any material that was not directed by the Lord has no business in the text. It is absolutely imperative to maintain the integrity of the text. This is why such critical textual analysis is important.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,747
6,913
113
#6
.......sigh........so I gotta burn by Bible because it has been corrupted by man......sigh.......

oh well.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
616
113
70
Alabama
#7
.......sigh........so I gotta burn by Bible because it has been corrupted by man......sigh.......
oh well.
Nonsense. Like I said, the verse does not teach anything that is not already confirmed by other scripture. Just be aware of the fact that this verse has very poor manuscript support.
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
#8
SO YOU CONCEDE it was known about before 1520

it was referrd to in sermons as ealy asthe 2nd century

many who opposed the idea of the trinity; which was still new; deliberately left it out of their copy of the Bible in early centuries


Actually, no Greek MSS contains verse seven in the body of the text until 1520. There are some 300 Gk mss. of 1Jn. Of these, the longer reading appears in only eight very late mss, one of which is mss 221 which dates prior to the 10th century A.D. Of these eight, four have it only as a marginal note as in the case of mss 221. It does not appear in the body of any Gk. text until it was added in mss. 61 in 1520. The first time this verse appears in ANY mss comes from Priscillian, a Spanish Bishop who lived from 340 - 385. He was the fist one to add this longer reading to the text of his Latin mss in about 380. Thus, it continued to appear in other Latin mss over the years. The mss evidence supporting verse seven is the weakest of any questioned text I have ever researched. It simply should not be there.
 
O

overcomer2

Guest
#9
I believe the Bible is a living epistle and for each generation God can take the same scripture and use it in a divine manner that is instrumental for that generation. For this generation the way you see the scriptures is divine, and Holy for this generation, even in the errors. Most would not have chosen Mary for the mother of Jesus. Because, she was not even married. However, God can do as he will's with circumstances that do not seem right in our eyes.

We see the word Isreal in the Bible, well for us he IS Real!! Cain and Abel...... are you a can't or an able?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,747
6,913
113
#10
Nonsense. Like I said, the verse does not teach anything that is not already confirmed by other scripture. Just be aware of the fact that this verse has very poor manuscript support.
(comment was tongue in cheek......thought that would be obvious....uh, er, well, maybe not :) )
 
R

Reformedjason

Guest
#11
The comea ohoneuim ( spelling is probably wrong) is what 1 john 5:7 is called. It does not belong in the text. It is from the Latin vulgate. The doctrine if the trinity is found throughout the bible. We do not need this verse. If we accept this verse the we admit that the greek manuscripts were tainted and had to be fixed. No one saw that verse in the greek for 1500 year
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,747
6,913
113
#12
The comea ohoneuim ( spelling is probably wrong) is what 1 john 5:7 is called. It does not belong in the text. It is from the Latin vulgate. The doctrine if the trinity is found throughout the bible. We do not need this verse. If we accept this verse the we admit that the greek manuscripts were tainted and had to be fixed. No one saw that verse in the greek for 1500 year
.......and maybe I will reconsider that my "burn my Bible" comment was tongue in cheek after all? It was meant to be, but I guess I will have to wait until more discussion occurs here......
 
G

GBrowning

Guest
#13
"These THREE are ONE= GOD, JESUS, & HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT are ONE DEITY, represented by three.

John 6:48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate the MANNA in the wilderness, and are dead. (Bowl of Manna in the Ark of the Covenant)
50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

There is no mystery here, in the temple was the table of shewbread which represents the WORD of God, and in the Ark of the COVENANT was the bowl of MANNA, both represent Jesus and his WORD!
Those who here the WORD of Jesus is eats his bread, then you have Jesus in you!

Now we KNOW Jesus is the WORD from John 1
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehendit.
14 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And the [/FONT]Word became flesh[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I John 5:7 the word is Jesus, and the word was God, thus jesus is god or the same Deity, three separate things but one supernatural presence.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus did NOT pray to himself, and Jesus also said that to look at him was to look at his father, and when Jesus was baptized was Jesus doing a ventriloquism act "this is my son whom I am well pleased." NO, they are separate in person but one in spirit. Jesus stands at the right hand of God!

It is important NOT to get caught up in this theology like this!
[/FONT]
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
616
113
70
Alabama
#15
SO YOU CONCEDE it was known about before 1520

it was referrd to in sermons as ealy asthe 2nd century

many who opposed the idea of the trinity; which was still new; deliberately left it out of their copy of the Bible in early centuries
Yes. In fact Metzger says that the Comma Johanneum was cited by Priscillian (385 AD), Cassian (435 AD), Ps-Vigilius (date unknown), Ps-Athanasius (6th century), Fulgentius (510 AD)(see John Gill), Ansbert (8th century), Jerome (4th century), Tertullian (3rd century), Athanasis (350 AD), Council of Carthage (415 AD), Vigilius of Thapsus (5th century), Cassiodorus (6th century) and Victor Vitensis. It also appears in the Greek Synopsis of Holy Scripture (4th century) and wa also quoted in the ’Disputation with Arius’ by Ps-Athanasius. The question is this, were they quoting from some Greek mss which we do not have or were they quoting from the Vulgate? We simply do not know. There is certainly no question that the statement of verse seven was not only known but widely cited. The debate is whether is was part of the original text or was it a popular statement that later found its way into the text?
 
Last edited:
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
0
#16
1 John 5:7 is in the family Rosary Commemorative Edition of 1953 that I have.
 
#18
A Trail of Evidence

But during this same time, we find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse: 200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas 250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin) 350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.] 350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.] 350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione 398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism 415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ) 450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are: A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven" B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.] C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.] 500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.] 550 AD Old Latin ms r has it 550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.] 750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it 800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.] 1000s AD miniscule 635 has it 1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin 1300s AD miniscule 629 has it 157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse 1500 AD ms 61 has the verse Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.
Good day, neighbour. 1 John 5:7 does indeed belong in the holy scriptures, which are able to make us wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. And men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith, who think that it is corrupted and does not belong in the scriptures are of their father the devil, and the lusts of their father they will do. As their father said in the beginning: ...Yea, hath God said...

And men who imagine that it somehow teaches that there is a trinity, are greatly deceived. The scriptures testify that there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And what do these three bear record in heaven of? This is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

The Father has borne record in heaven when his Son was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Word of God has borne record in heaven. Because it is written, for ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. For in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And as his holy child said, these are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. And the Word (which is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,) was made flesh. As it is written in the law, I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him, saith the LORD.

And the Holy Ghost has borne record in heaven. For the Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. And the Holy Ghost is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Gabriel said to Mary, the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

This is why it is written, these three are one.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
13,861
113
#19
Good day, neighbour. 1 John 5:7 does indeed belong in the holy scriptures, which are able to make us wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. And men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith, who think that it is corrupted and does not belong in the scriptures are of their father the devil, and the lusts of their father they will do. As their father said in the beginning: ...Yea, hath God said...

And men who imagine that it somehow teaches that there is a trinity, are greatly deceived. The scriptures testify that there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And what do these three bear record in heaven of? This is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

The Father has borne record in heaven when his Son was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Word of God has borne record in heaven. Because it is written, for ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. For in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And as his holy child said, these are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. And the Word (which is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,) was made flesh. As it is written in the law, I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him, saith the LORD.

And the Holy Ghost has borne record in heaven. For the Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. And the Holy Ghost is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Gabriel said to Mary, the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

This is why it is written, these three are one.
Welcome to CC...

FYI, responding to a thread that has been dormant for nine years is not recommended. The date of the last post is in the upper left.