God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Ah, so this is the sound now? All of a sudden "early church" and their traditions are of some importance. I have never denied that the ante-nicene fathers spoke of free will. But to say that they spoke of (and meant with) that in the same wise as semi-pelagians or arminians is another kettle of fish altogether. And, yes, the catholics had their take on these things in the council of Trent, in opposition not only to the reformation but also to their own older creeds.

Btw, if you want to have an honest and consequent approach to the early fathers, you should also look at what quite a few of them taught about the trinity and the atonement. I am quite sure you'd find no support for your views in that. "The earlier the more reliable" is not always correct.



We are not discussing limited atonement here. It's not necessarily a goes hand in hand thing. Just because you reject the concept of free will in spiritual matters it doesn't mean you have to believe in limited atonement.
Actually I have written record of the earliest church, It is found in scripture from acts to revelation. So why would I care what men after these men wrote? Are those men reliable? were they inspired by God?

So, who else believes like you for instance about the restoration of Israel?

being in the military, I have travalled and lived in many states. Attended many churches. many of which are quite large churches. The church I attend now has over 6000 people who attend on a semi regular basis, Every church I have ever attended believes in this.

Yet that does not matter does it? We do not go off popular interpretation. We could be in error by doing that (like the jews in Christ's time) We should just go by the word right?

I have yet to find a Church I agree 100 % with everything everyone believes, I doubt I ever will..
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
We all have wills. The question is if this will (for natural man) is "free to choose" in spiritual matters or not.
It must be. Or God would not tell us to come to him, and he will give us eternal life. To believe in him, and he will remove condemnation. To trust him, and he will never let us down.

If free will is removed and we can not do the things Jesus said we must do to be saved, then no one could be saved.

Eph 2 says we are saved by the redemption in Christ, By Grace,, Due to his mercy, the gift is salvation.

In vs 8 - 9 Paul makes it clear, this gift is found by faith, not works, lest anyone should boast. One can not boast in faith in Christ. Or Paul would have said they could. One can only boast if they try to work out their own salvation.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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Im well aware of antics Tribesman, see it all the time, i prolly see them come from calvinists
more than others and i dont play that. I know then that fishing for documents and taking
stuff out of context etc is the rules of the game when fighting for you team. But i dont have
a team yet.
LOL! I can only say that I've seen some wishful thinking from all sides.

To be fair and i almost did this a couple days, but i could get the columns to work out right
because im a caveman when it comes to computers. But i imagined 2 columns left side Jesus
commands based on free will and teachings He taught showing the need to use free will.
I'm afraid you assume a free will which is not in the text. I gave you many scriptures where Jesus flatly trashes all hopes of a "positive outlook" of man's possibilities and choices of contributing to his salvation. There's nothing of "chance" or "opportunity" in natural man's ways, so depraved is he of sin.

Then on the right a column of texts that show the necessity of the Holy spirit and the Father
working drawing etc. Ive done it at home before and with a picture with both sides i think
gives the whole truth on the matter.
The drawing is done since man is NOT willing. It is a forceful compelling in that sense, since man lacks every and all ability to positively respond while still dead in his sins.

FYI im not totally against the 5 points just enough to reject them. What i meant about the institutes
was that Calvin who i think was a wonderful scholor said in many writings things that contradict
teachings and positions i see today. But then im sure you knew that.
Nice to read that you appreciate Calvin as a Bible scholar! He is far underestimated as such, even among many calvinists.

By the way since youve said it a few times now can you tell what you mean here "Yes, free will was spoken of, but not in the sense that the arminians" Im not aware what you mean. I know all arminians are not the same.
Well, first off, there are quiet a few handpicked quotes from the ante-nicene fathers out on some sites and blogs, quotes who seem to be clearly in favor of free will. However, these quotes are often taken out of context AND also what is left out are many other quotes, sometimes from the very same fathers, who actually seem to be against free will (that is free will in the sense we're discussing here). The fathers were not a homogeneous group, they could differ widely in their views. So the issue is not handled with unequivocally with a single voice either way.

For example, one would not really find something like "prevenient grace" in these writings or something like some kind of universal grace which nullifies the depravity inherited from Adam. Many of the “free will” quotes are, in context, primarily referring to the nature and constitution of man as he was originally created. There was also a need to denounce pagan fatalism and stress man's responsibility. None of these things would neither Augustine nor the much later protestants have any argument with. Other than that I can add that to try to make the ante-nicene fathers either arminian or calvinist is quiet a vain task, since they lived in another time epoch and had different priorities.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I'm afraid you assume a free will which is not in the text. I gave you many scriptures where Jesus flatly trashes all hopes of a "positive outlook" of man's possibilities and choices of contributing to his salvation.
This is your issue. No one here is saying man has the ability or choice to contribute to his or her salvation. that would be a salvation of works.. I can;t contribute anything, if i could Christ would not have needed to die for me.

The drawing is done since man is NOT willing. It is a forceful compelling in that sense, since man lacks every and all ability to positively respond while still dead in his sins.
This is false. if we could not respond, we could not believe, and jesus and god would not tell us to respond in faith, and that is the only way. even further, he would not be able to tell us if we do not respnd, we have no hope. thus you have issues both ways!
 
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Mercy777

Guest
John 1:13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Romans 9:16

[SUP]16 [/SUP]It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Luke 17:5The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”
Acts 3:16By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.
Romans 10:17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.quently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:5so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.

1 Corinthians 12:9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

2 Corinthians 4:13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,

Galatians 3:23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 3:2And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men, for not everyone has faith.

1 Timothy 1:14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 12:2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Peter 1:7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

1 Peter 1:9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1:21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

2 Peter 1:1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

All that is visible and invisible comes from God even LOVE. We love Him because He first loved us and poured His love into our hearts.

Now that you have been given this gift of Faith, you have the freedom to make choices to do the righteousness of Christ. Before you were under the control of the evil one and could not see the righteousness of Christ.

Abraham had faith, God everyday held his hand out to the obstinate nation Israel, some will never enter His rest.
Judas lived with Christ over 3 years and still did not believe. Pharoh was raised just for this purpose, that God would display His glory. Peter disowned Christ and spread the gospel to the Jews and was crucified up-side down because he spoke he was not worthy to die as his Lord died.

Romans 11:32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Jesus has all power and authority in heaven, on earth and under earth.

John 17:2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

Live by the Spirit, He speaks.
God Bless
Mercy
 
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Mercy777

Guest
Now that you have been given this gift of Faith, you have the freedom to make choices to do the righteousness of Christ. Before you were under the control of the evil one and could not see the righteousness of Christ.

Also to carry out the choices you have been given will take the power of Christ. Man can do nothing except pray.
Moses intervened and prayed, God relented.
David prayed and fasted for his son to live, God spoke beforehand to David. David's son died. What did David say to his servants in the morn after his son's death, they asked why David prayed, who knows God may have mercy.
God gave David victory and David knew it and praised God time and time again and to this day David's life given by God still gives glory to God, Son and Spirit.

God Bless,
Mercy

We are not our own, we have been bought with the Blood of Christ. Men purchased for God.
 
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Abiding

Guest
Tribesman im not sure you see my position and how it differs from yours.
I understand yours but its how you word your position most of the time that makes it true.

For instance that no man can come to me unless he is drawn by the Father.
Right there i see the Father drawing someone, because the individual is cut off in Adam and has
no way in himself to make reconciliation or even know how. You focus on the mans nature and
although man certainly is in deep weeds that isnt why he cant go unaided but the fact hes cut off
is the problem. So God has chosen to offer reconciliation through the Sons sacrifice and only through
the Gospel and the Holyspirit will He draw man.

Now saying that we know our differences. You call the idea of man aided by the gospel and Spirit of God
prevenient grace which isnt even a biblical word but a theological implant. Jesus told us of this. He told us
how men would be drawn. And added when they are He would never turn one away.

So yes i agree mans free will alone wont get him a bag of popcorn. But Jesus said this work the Holyspirit will
do will be universal. What Jesus made clear you call prevenient grace. And try to say the drawing of the Father
is regeneration. Which isnt true. Thats our divide.

So, take all the verses that show the elect, His sheep, Fathers drawing, etc and line them up
with come unto me, if any man thirsts, whomsoever. You end up with my position.
I know it makes some heave to think God wants to save all, even tho all will not want it. And that
He would die on a cross in humiliation before the world to save no good sinners who reject Him.
But thats the truth. Yes He did.

Both are true God has a elect. Those that believe...........then......regenerated.
You never told me the freewill definition of a arminian you dont like. Not that i care its
just that i kept hearing you say that but you never explained.

Oh by the way, telling me i assume freewill thats not in the text. No i dont.
Point it out if you see it. But do it by definition. Thats why ive shyed from this
debate. Its drenched with key words and craft. Where all it becomes is a boxing match.

 
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Abiding

Guest
Originally Posted by tribesman

We all have wills. The question is if this will (for natural man) is "free to choose" in spiritual matters or not.



Well good question. The answer is, on his own no. But is he on his own?
question: if a man hears the gospel and chooses to believe it...will he, meaning all that do, be received?
 
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Abiding

Guest
To the extreme election view of limited atonement id say if it were true.
The bible if needed at all would not need more than
maybe 3 pages.

If anyone can refute that id be happy to hear.
If God zaps and your zapped for eternity whats the point to life?
And why would any holding that view care to be here and contend
for a faith that in this natural realm doesnt even need it?

Why fight for a socalled true gospel that isnt at all necessary?
God will zap them, so seems contradictory to mess in a futile effort.
 
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To the extreme election view of limited atonement id say if it were true.
The bible if needed at all would not need more than
maybe 3 pages. Over the course if 4000 years by 40 men and women would be hard to fit into three pages.

If anyone can refute that id be happy to hear.Refute what? - Your assertion or the facts?
If God zaps and your zapped for eternity whats the point to life? Indeed.
And why would any holding that view care to be here and contend
for a faith that in this natural realm doesnt even need it? "Hold a faith"? - Listen to your self.

Why fight for a socalled true gospel that isnt at all necessary? More building on a castle of sand.
God will zap them, so seems contradictory to mess in a futile effort. Your effort IS futile, SEE his.
 
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Abiding

Guest
Your answers were the usual Rick. But i cant say my questions there were any better.
How have you been?
 
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Abiding

Guest
Rick, why did you start this thread?
Was it just a rally for them in agreement?:p
 
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I am well, as I hope you are.
The reason I started this thread is that many see God as the elector;
and in so doing see themselves as having 'freewill' to decide on God's election.
I merely changed the terms,.......to show it is by God the Father's freewill -(through Jesus Christ);
that any are saved.
And I still say, - and agree with Paul the Apostle and Luther and Calvin, and the rest of the reformed theologians,
that faith itself is a gift.
Or else why would Jesus tell His disciples to spread the gospel,
(to the martyring of their physical bodies); if it was something God zapped people on the head with.
 
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Abiding

Guest
So do you believe God gives man any say so in this gift?
To accept or reject?
 
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John 17:12

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]12 [/SUP]While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


None of the others lost their faith facing death. - (And this was well after Jesus was gone).
Even the bishop Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father while he was being stoned(killed).
I'd say Jesus loses no one.
I would reckon this 'faith' a gift.
(The people who stoned Stephen laid their coats at Saul of Tarsus' feet, - (who later became Paul by the immutable grace of God). - I'd say the whole of giving one's life for the cross or laying down one's life for the gospel is an absolute gift. - (See Saul, Paul); (See Judas Iscariot). ---- Notice the differences and the similarities.
And notice the freewill of someone else.
 
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Abiding

Guest
what do you mean free will of someone else?

And you didnt answer the question with a simple yes or no.
 
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You can answer it yourself, you already have.
All I did was give you scripture.
But that isn't enough.
I thought this was a bible forum?
Please reply with scripture,......or else be silent.
.........Abiding.........
 
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Abiding

Guest
You can answer it yourself, you already have.
All I did was give you scripture.
But that isn't enough.
I thought this was a bible forum?
Please reply with scripture,......or else be silent.
.........Abiding.........
No the forum doesnt operate tossing bible back and forth its meant
to be for discussion. Basically your afraid to answer. Now your telling me to be silent.
Reply to what with scripture? i asked a question and you havnt any response
U want a scripture for that?
 
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Abiding

Guest
Rick go look at all your posts....count the times you use scripture.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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Are you serious? (I'm so very afraid)
Can you think of one scripture? (I can think of many to reinforce your viewpoint).
- - - But you can't think of one?
Come on Abiding, ......please!?