Is fellowship possible between Calvinists and Arminians?

[rauleetoe]

I am a 5-point Calvinist. I often find that most of American Evangelicals are Arminian. I have fellowshipped with some and divided the word on many issues and always managed to disagree in love. However, there are many Arminian s who are radical anti-Calvinistic many on this very site. Is it possible to coexist.

It is when both parties do not treat the other as the heretical opponent..I have met those from both parties who are pleasant..i will be upfront and honest with you, I am a classical arminian with a Wesleyan emphasis..I have read a bit on calvinism and Arminian theology and while i do not consider myself anti 'calvinist' I am certainly more anti determinist..that is what separates me most from those who adhere to TULIP.
I have one friend who has been hard to fellowship with me because he has said it in subtle ways that I am going to a church that is 'catholic' when nothing could be further from the truth. What i object with most calvinists is the accusation that those who hold to any soteriological view other than Calvinism are man centered pridefull people who seek to have the glory in their own salvation when nothing could be further from the truth. Yes i have tried befriending some high calvinists albeit knowing they would always try to 'get me saved' because they did not see me as a bible believing follower of Christ. I tried befriending one presbyterian who i am sure outside of the two talks i had with him is a pleasant young man but he had started with insults and pridefull statements like 'reform theology cannot be refuted' and would not let up once he found out i was not a calvinist his goal from then on was to try to prove that the bible is all determinism and compatibilism. Sadly i could not be friends with someone like this who was beyond arrogant in his looking down upon me for attending a church in the wesleyan tradition. I will be honest, i am a little leary and iffy about hanging with many calvinists because i feel they do not grasp that grace also means responsibility and a response to that grace,which is holy and right living(not perfect but always aiming high towards perfection aiming one's sight/eyes on Jesus Christ)
That said, It can only be possible when both parties have respect and not an alterior motive when having a friend of the differing theological/soteriological views. In all honesty..many things that reform theology adheres to are the very same things that Classical Arminian theology adheres to.
-we believe it is all God,all grace when one is saved
-we believe God is sovereign(albeit not to the high calvinist deterministic definition of Sovereignty)
-we believe in the security of the believer,all believers are secure(in so much as one does not apostacize from the faith, so that is our take on 'eternal security')
-we believe in total depravity, although many accuse of not believing in it. Look at any of the sayings of John Wesley or Arminius..youll see their strong belief in total depravity

All in all, the appeal of the Classical Arminian is and first and foremost is the fact shown in scripture that God is good, and a goodness that is understandable as sincerely and truly good, that he does not make us Robotic automations, that sufficient grace has been bestowed to all me by God himself in so much that they can choose to accept or reject the Gospel, and he does this because he honors us as more than 'stones' and any relationship that is not two fold is at best a manipulative abuse and not a sincere genuine loving relationship. The secondary effect, and result of this is that God has allowed and make provision by giving us libertarian free will.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Most Calvinists I've encountered usually pride themselves as "educated" and "intellectual". While I have encountered Arminians who are prideful in thier beliefs, most I've met consider themselves to possess a simplistic and easy to understand perspective.

As for my own beliefs, I am a Monergist however, I also believe that God's soveriegnty demands a response from man (volition) and that synergy can be defined in one word; SURRENDER. I find Arminians to be much more open and more apt to embrace this perspective than Calvinists.

In fact, it appears to me that many modern Calvinists have reverted back to an apathetic, almost Antinomian perspective similar to that held by the Church of England in the mid 1600 to mid 1700s before the 1st Great Awakening.

You have not spoken with many arminians then have you?? As I have said. I have gotten into many heated debates with many of them. So I will go off what I have experienced. and not what others say.

ps. I do believe calvanists are saved.. I do not believe most arminians are (I would not say all. for I can not know) for calvanist do believe in a gospel of faith. while arminians believe in gospel of works. This is what separates them. it is the gospel which makes them heated debates. as I am sure you are about to witness. as I am sure many arminians will not condemn me as a liar.

 

[rauleetoe]

You have not spoken with many arminians then have you?? As I have said. I have gotten into many heated debates with many of them. So I will go off what I have experienced. and not what others say.

ps. I do believe calvanists are saved.. I do not believe most arminians are (I would not say all. for I can not know) for calvanist do believe in a gospel of faith. while arminians believe in gospel of works. This is what separates them. it is the gospel which makes them heated debates. as I am sure you are about to witness. as I am sure many arminians will not condemn me as a liar.

You speak as if you knew what classical Arminian theology teaches..and you do not EG. I say this in love because i know how you will reply and what follows will be an assault of how my words condemn me when i simply believe that God enables us to live for him,so we have no excuse. I would strongly recommend you read about what true classical arminian teaches, by a true arminian theologian like Roger E Olson, and not what your calvinist contemporaries teach. Are you Jesus? No, so why do you go on claiming you know who are saved and who are not? Theology saves? Since when? You claim i said works save..which i never said. No true arminian would say this, we just believe like any logical and sound christian that true conversion means fruit of the spirit will be evident, do you disagree?
So, why go and make full on making divisive dividing statements that you believe most calvinists are saved and few arminians are..can you see the heart of most arminians and most calvinists? No, you are making generalizing statements that are unfair.
Watch your words..they do not do more than cause divisions and are based more on your prejudices than on the facts.

 

[Descyple]

I think this thread is in need of a joke timeout. Here is one I made up (I tried to be unbiased and equal on both sides, let me know if I succeeded).

Question - How do you get a Calvinist and an Arminian into the same Church together?

Answer - Tell the Calvinist that John Calvin's great, great, great grandson Jack Calvin will be giving a sermon on "Total Depravity", then tell the Arminian that Jack Calvin's sermon will itself be "totally depraved" and therefore the Arminian is to give Jack an alter call at the end of the service.

If that plan doesn't bring Calvinists and Arminians together, nothing will - lol.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You speak as if you knew what classical Arminian theology teaches..and you do not EG. I say this in love because i know how you will reply and what follows will be an assault of how my words condemn me when i simply believe that God enables us to live for him,so we have no excuse. I would strongly recommend you read about what true classical arminian teaches, by a true arminian theologian like Roger E Olson, and not what your calvinist contemporaries teach. Are you Jesus? No, so why do you go on claiming you know who are saved and who are not? Theology saves? Since when? You claim i said works save..which i never said. No true arminian would say this, we just believe like any logical and sound christian that true conversion means fruit of the spirit will be evident, do you disagree?
So, why go and make full on making divisive dividing statements that you believe most calvinists are saved and few arminians are..can you see the heart of most arminians and most calvinists? No, you are making generalizing statements that are unfair.
Watch your words..they do not do more than cause divisions and are based more on your prejudices than on the facts.

I rest my case!

here are the facts.

If salvation is of Christ alone based on his work alone. then it is based solely on Christ. and thus can not be earned to be given. Earned to be kept. and can not be lost, because it is not based on us, but is based on Christ and his promises.

If salvation is not based on Christ. But based on what a person does or does not do. then it is based on works. thus anyone who teaches salvation can be lost, FOR ANY REASON, teaches this works based Gospel.

Arminians believe salvation can be lost. The reason salvation can be lost differs from person to person. but they ALL believe this. Thus they are stating a man is salved. or keeps his salvation based on some work which is to be performed (or not performed as may be the case) of man. and not God.

Your right, I can not judge a person or his salvation. But I can judge their gospel.

ps. I did not get my belief from studying what some calvanist wrote about what an arminian teaches. I get it by talking to arminians themselves. I do not listen to men. and could care less what a calvanist tells me about an arminian. Why would i listen to them? I would not listen to a calvanist tell me what an arminain believes any more than I would listen to an arminian tell me what a calvanist believes. they would be biased views.

 

[rauleetoe]

Greetings exbi-savedbygrace.

I can understand your question, since I have seen many Calvinists and Arminians being incredibly nasty towards each other. However don't let those particular Calvinists and Arminians dissuade you from believing that harmony and co-existence is indeed possible between the two groups of Christians.

I will give two examples that godly fellowship is possible between Calvinists and Arminians (one personal example, and one historical example).

I am a Calvinist, and yet "all" of my Christian friends are Arminian. The only Calvinists I know are on this site, another site I belong to (a "Reformed" Christian site) and the preachers I listen to. But in my personal life, I don't know any Calvinists at all. And I get along absolutely great with my Arminian friends. And not only do we get along despite our theological differences, we even joke about our disagreements often. I would never disassociate myself from them just because of our opposing views on the Calvinism/Arminiansim debate, nor would they disassociate themselves from me. I am very grateful to God for that strong spirit of fellowship that we all have between us.

The historical example I will give to demonstrate fellowship between both groups is definitely possible is the example of friendship between George Whitefield (Calvinist) and John Wesley (Arminian). Whitefield and Wesley were 18th century preachers. And despite having very harsh disagreements with each other over the doctrines of Calvinism and Arminiansim (including a very public dispute about their disagreement in 1740) the two remained life-long friends, and never ceased calling each other brothers in Christ. In fact, the year that Whitefield was to die, he requested that Wesley preach the sermon at his memorial service, which Wesley did.

I have not, and will not stop using their example of friendship in my own life when it comes to non-Calvinist Christians that God graces my life with. And although about 95 percent of the books I read are from Reformed camps, I still am blessed by Arminian writers. For example John Wesley's brother Charles (also good friends with Whitefield) is my second favorite hymn writer. And yet Charles (like his brother John) was not only non-Calvinist, but anti-Calvinist (Charles utterly despised Calvinism, referring particularly to the Calvinist definition of predestination as a "Horrible Decree"). And yet, I would never allow that to prevent me from being greatly blessed and even comforted by some of his great hymns about Jesus Christ and the Christian faith.

And I find it interesting that the reverse is also true; for example Charles Wesley greatly admired the book "The Life of God in the Soul of Man" which was written by the 17th century Puritan (and Calvinist) Henry Scougal. Interestingly, it was Charles who gave Scougal's book to Whitefield, and Whitefield credited that book to being instrumental to his conversion. Whitefield stated it this way, "I must bear testimony to my old friend Mr. Charles Wesley; he put a book into my hands, called 'The Life of God in the Soul of Man' whereby God showed me that I must be born again."

Imagine that, an Arminian (Wesley) reading and being blessed by a book written by a Calvinist, and then that Arminian gives that same book to a non-Christian (Whitefield), which was one of the main instruments used to bring that non-Christian to faith in Jesus Christ. And God ends up using both men (a Calvinist and an Arminian) magnificently in the Great Awakening Revival. Anything is possible with God - Matthew 19:26 (even fellowship between Calvinists and Arminians).

So I know that God not only can, but in fact does bless both sides through each other.

"We were all baptized by one Spirit, so as to form one body." - 1 Corinthians 12:13

That was beautifull, and it gives me hope...i have honestly met some who are wonderfull examples of what a christian should be from both camps..I am very much Arminian in the classical sense..I have sadly had many on here, and in real life think less of me for not holding to what they call 'the doctrines of Grace'(as if reform theology were the only expression to hold a high view of grace) Whatever the case, sadly many of those whom i have met do not have the capacity to see their arminian neighbor as that, their neighbor..we are seen as non christian to them and at the worst, their opponent/enemy. It gives me much grief to see this and have experienced..sometimes the high amount/volume of reform theology proponents here makes me wonder why its not called calvinist chat, or the charismatics here too..maybe called charismatic chat..or calvinist chat..because if you are of neither persuation, look out..you are the enemy on here.
The best example i have seen from a young man who was reform was a more mild calvinist who had nothing but good things to say of John Wesley and nothing evil to say about arminians..Sadly i rarely see him. He is one of the few calvinists i know id be totally unweary of befriending. When i became more convinced of arminian theology my best friend of 17 years and i have had a tumultous friendship(He is a high calvinist, big proponent of TULIP) We cannot hardly hang and if we do talk about God it means i shut up and let him talk and really cannot say much or it will become an argument. It is discouraging. I pray to find new friends of the arminian/wesleyan expresssion/emphasis because i know it will not be problem and we will be equally yoked.

 

[rauleetoe]

I rest my case!

here are the facts.

If salvation is of Christ alone based on his work alone. then it is based solely on Christ. and thus can not be earned to be given. Earned to be kept. and can not be lost, because it is not based on us, but is based on Christ and his promises.

If salvation is not based on Christ. But based on what a person does or does not do. then it is based on works. thus anyone who teaches salvation can be lost, FOR ANY REASON, teaches this works based Gospel.

Arminians believe salvation can be lost. The reason salvation can be lost differs from person to person. but they ALL believe this. Thus they are stating a man is salved. or keeps his salvation based on some work which is to be performed (or not performed as may be the case) of man. and not God.

Your right, I can not judge a person or his salvation. But I can judge their gospel.

ps. I did not get my belief from studying what some calvanist wrote about what an arminian teaches. I get it by talking to arminians themselves. I do not listen to men. and could care less what a calvanist tells me about an arminian. Why would i listen to them? I would not listen to a calvanist tell me what an arminain believes any more than I would listen to an arminian tell me what a calvanist believes. they would be biased views.

I am going to have to disagree with you, because many do not adhere to OSAS(btw this is the nicest response and most non attacking reply you've given me so far in some time)
I disagree that believing one can possibly apostasize(fall away from the faith as it talks about in 1timothy4:1, and romans 11:21-22,and hebrews 3:14..
Once again, arminian theology that is truly classical arminian theology never teaches or appeals to works..I cannot convince you of this obviously. I can only point to Arminian theology,myths and realities by Roger E Olson.
If you choose to read it, it may and i am sure will most likely dispel the many false ideas you have of us in the arminian emphasis/theological expression of faith. I am speaking now of what a true classical arminian says he believes..Much of what you said here and in other threads is simply untrue and unfounded..and at best, unfair about arminianism. Disagree with us if you must, but disagree with what is truly factual about us..not your assumptions, which are untrue. No arminian ever appeals to works based salvation..we have a high view of grace too. We simply believe in a response after accepting that grace, as many calvinists agree with too. So, before you go on implying i am condemned(i am growing tired of saying this in plain english, i never appealed to works based salvation) But if you are truly seeking to live for God, you cannot live how you once lived..this is what i believe. I am sure you do too. That said, no 'good theology' will save you if you live like the devil and thus prove you are without fruit of the spirit/not working out your own salvation/examining yourself to see if you are truly in the faith..btw that is scriptural.

 

[Crossfire]

You have not spoken with many arminians then have you?? As I have said. I have gotten into many heated debates with many of them. So I will go off what I have experienced. and not what others say.

ps. I do believe calvanists are saved.. I do not believe most arminians are (I would not say all. for I can not know) for calvanist do believe in a gospel of faith. while arminians believe in gospel of works. This is what separates them. it is the gospel which makes them heated debates. as I am sure you are about to witness. as I am sure many arminians will not condemn me as a liar.

Umm... I was once a Wesleyan Arminian. In fact, my family are Wesleyan Arminians and the majority of my friends would be considered Arminian so I can say with all sincerity that I have met more than my fair share. *lol* I would say the reason why I don't run into some of the same issues as you do is because not only do I understand their perspective but I'm able to convey Monergism in such a way that that a Synergist can understand and agree with.

You do realize that conservative Calvinists do consider all who believe in OSAS to be Arminians despite the similarities in OSAS and Perserverance of the Saints?

 

[crossnote]

I have more respect for an Arminian or a Calvinist who uncompromisingly and without personal attacks proclaims and defends his or her position than for. any one who belittles theology for the sake of 'just getting along '.Martyn lloyd Jones did point out that in extreme circumstances such as in a WWII bomb shelter the denominational divides fade into "Lord, help us!".

 

[rauleetoe]

I have more respect for an Arminian or a Calvinist who uncompromisingly and without personal attacks proclaims and defends his or her position than for. any one who belittles theology for the sake of 'just getting along '.Martyn lloyd Jones did point out that in extreme circumstances such as in a WWII bomb shelter the denominational divides fade into "Lord, help us!".

Thank you..and i agree..many here though, not the calvinist or the arminian..belittle theology and see little use to it, insomuch as becoming extreme and anti denominational and say they just 'go by the bible'..really? This is what all folks say..
It has become a new trend among many..the anti theological trend, and the do not go to church trend,and anti denominationalism/pro non denominationalism which if one looks all non denominational churches adhere to one or more than one denominational theological influence/background..if one does the research the fingerprints of denominationalism are even within the non denominational churches.

 

[Crossfire]

I have more respect for an Arminian or a Calvinist who uncompromisingly and without personal attacks proclaims and defends his or her position than for. any one who belittles theology for the sake of 'just getting along '.Martyn lloyd Jones did point out that in extreme circumstances such as in a WWII bomb shelter the denominational divides fade into "Lord, help us!".

I never thought I'd see Martin Lloyd Jones' name brought up in these forums. I'm glad to see someone else who enjoys his writings also.

 

[crossnote]

sure. most non-denominational movements become 'denominational' in time. Calvary Chapels are a good example, even though they say they are not a denomination, I can tell you where they stand on each topic as well as their usual 'liturgy'. A rose by any other name is...

 

[Crossfire]

I rest my case!

here are the facts.

If salvation is of Christ alone based on his work alone. then it is based solely on Christ. and thus can not be earned to be given. Earned to be kept. and can not be lost, because it is not based on us, but is based on Christ and his promises.

If salvation is not based on Christ. But based on what a person does or does not do. then it is based on works. thus anyone who teaches salvation can be lost, FOR ANY REASON, teaches this works based Gospel.

Arminians believe salvation can be lost. The reason salvation can be lost differs from person to person. but they ALL believe this. Thus they are stating a man is salved. or keeps his salvation based on some work which is to be performed (or not performed as may be the case) of man. and not God.

Your right, I can not judge a person or his salvation. But I can judge their gospel.

ps. I did not get my belief from studying what some calvanist wrote about what an arminian teaches. I get it by talking to arminians themselves. I do not listen to men. and could care less what a calvanist tells me about an arminian. Why would i listen to them? I would not listen to a calvanist tell me what an arminain believes any more than I would listen to an arminian tell me what a calvanist believes. they would be biased views.

A heart that has truly encountered the the grace of God will be transformed in some manner or another because God's word is never void. Scripture states that they are a new creature who's old hearts of stone have been replaced with new hearts of flesh both humble and contrite. One can not be inhabited by the most powerful force in the universe and not be changed in some manner. A truly regenerate heart inhabited by the Holy Spirit will indeed show evidences of the Holy Spirit's inhabitation be it through repentance, works of compassion or the manifestations (fruit) of the Holy Spirit.

Unfortunately, many in certain grace camps today have turned good works into a bad thing. They've even gone so far as to incorporate sin as "works" in an attempt to dismiss sin as having no bearing on one's salvation when in truth sin is nothing short of rebellion against God, the evidence / result of a heart that has already willfully distanced itself from God no longer abiding in Him.

 

[crossnote]

I never thought I'd see Martin Lloyd Jones' name brought up in these forums. I'm glad to see someone else who enjoys his writings also.

HA!!! You just reminded me.. M.L.J. was a CALVINISTIC METHODIST!!! How a propos.
Calvinistic Methodists «««click there

 

[Crossfire]

HA!!! You just reminded me.. M.L.J. was a CALVINISTIC METHODIST!!! How a propos.
Calvinistic Methodists

Yeah, the Church could use more like he & Evan Roberts. Jones was also a Continuationist.

 

[zone]

HA!!! You just reminded me.. M.L.J. was a CALVINISTIC METHODIST!!! How a propos.
Calvinistic Methodists «««click there

hehehe

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/44272-do-you-preach-everlasting-gospel.html < click post#2

 

[Red33]

A heart that has truly encountered the the grace of God will be transformed in some manner or another because God's word is never void. Scripture states that they are a new creature who's old hearts of stone have been replaced with new hearts of flesh both humble and contrite. One can not be inhabited by the most powerful force in the universe and not be changed in some manner. A truly regenerate heart inhabited by the Holy Spirit will indeed show evidences of the Holy Spirit's inhabitation be it through repentance, works of compassion or the manifestations (fruit) of the Holy Spirit.

Unfortunately, many in certain grace camps today have turned good works into a bad thing. They've even gone so far as to incorporate sin as "works" in an attempt to dismiss sin as having no bearing on one's salvation when in truth sin is nothing short of rebellion against God, the evidence / result of a heart that has already willfully distanced itself from God no longer abiding in Him.

You are on wacked out individual and you need much help. Please go and get it and hope it is not too late.

 

[crossnote]

hehehe

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/44272-do-you-preach-everlasting-gospel.html < click post#2

¿you mean Luther's?

 

[Rock022]

I think this thread is in need of a joke timeout. Here is one I made up (I tried to be unbiased and equal on both sides, let me know if I succeeded).

Question - How do you get a Calvinist and an Arminian into the same Church together?

Answer - Tell the Calvinist that John Calvin's great, great, great grandson Jack Calvin will be giving a sermon on "Total Depravity", then tell the Arminian that Jack Calvin's sermon will itself be "totally depraved" and therefore the Arminian is to give Jack an alter call at the end of the service.

If that plan doesn't bring Calvinists and Arminians together, nothing will - lol.

Here is another joke

How do we get Calvinist and Armenians together in harmony? Tell them a roman catholic is discussing theology!

 

[Mooky]

Personally I believe that Christ died for all - but that the elect are the chosen ones -ie.they have a sort of "double predestination", if you like.Those who reject the gospel are still people for whom Christ died.
The bible says that ;"many are called but few are chosen,"Matt 22:14.
This probably makes me a 3/4 point Calvinist.
And because I don't think there is a single soul who truly understands predestination, it is good to just embrace the mystery.To oversimplify this doctrine is to venture out into hypercalvism. Just my opinion.