THE REQUIREMENTS FOR ETERNAL LIFE ACCORDING TO JESUS
- Thread starter vassal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
What am I not listening to God about? Me and my group? So it's us against them now?
I actually had someone tell me one time that since Paul uses the word faith by itself in a passage that means faith alone saves.
No it's not us against them but you're the one that felt compelled to tell us what other churches you've been in contact with
Its not about faith remaining by itself (barren of works) which demonstrates that it was not genuine faith in the first place but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14-17) Its about faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philipians 3:9 etc..). Do you understand the difference?
I've heard the "you and your group" comment other times as well and was beginning to see a pattern. I mentioned other churches to show that I have listened to the other side.
In response to rogerg, I really like your list, however, in my opinion the tasks associated with these statements are probably not the objective. I believe that Jesus is describing what a born again person begins to demonstrate and look like to others. What they become through obedience and the Power of the Holy Spirit. What Jesus came to do among other things is to enable a "new creation" of born again people. These are less of a command than they are a recognition of what a born again person becomes.
We pretend that as Christians there are no "deal breakers." While that is comforting, Jesus says that if you don't love your neighbor you don't love God. In Matthew 25, Jesus describes a judgement scene in which "many" will claim they have a guarantee of heaven because they were appropriately, if conveniently religious. They believed all the "right things" and they even tried to some religious stuff. The result is they are cast into eternal outer darkness.
The eternal tension between faith & Grace based salvation and the specific call of Jesus for obedience and human reformation into a new kind of human are complementary. They are in tension only so far as we choose to actually experience rebirth, recreation and take on the mission given to us by God through the sacrifice of Jesus. On our own, we can not and will not adopt these characteristics (along the Paul's definition of love and his measurement of that love by our "fruits." Jesus told us that "If you love me you will keep my commandments." Your list make up a good portion of Jesus commandments.
In my opinion, we have subjugated real faith and settled a definition far more comfortable to those in the pews. "Only believe!" Put your "trust" in Jesus. ets. Euphemisms designed to support our totally selfish, carnal and hedonistic lives. We reduced Christianity to a mental state, a mind game. The objective is convenience. God has no call on your life the "other" 167 hrs/wk. We come to church. We give money to the church. We listen or sing some songs. We listen to a few prayers and perhaps participate in the Lord's Supper. This is 21st century "salvation." This is 21str century "conversion". This "version" of Christianity differs dramatically from Jesus description of his true followers who deny themselves and pick up their personal cross of sacrificial active working faith. There are few more impactful illustrations of the scope of changed lives Jesus is requiring than the metaphor of the birth of a baby. Starting off with only a trust of the mother but then growing into adult. The difference is that Jesus does not expect us to be eternal babies only dependent on others. Jesus is calling for workers, builders, healers, comforters, lovers and people who are a bright light to their world by the example of their lives.
When looking at 21 century Christianity, the metaphor that comes to mind is a coach telling his team that to win they must totally believe in him and trust him. The team swears they will, but at game time the entire team is sitting in the stands. Somehow they still believe that their faith alone will somehow win the game. Ridiculous right? What happened? The team did not want to change into their uniforms and look different. The team did not want to do anything inconvenient or that might lead to embarrassment or even injury, the team had other priorities.....but the team still believed in the coach's promise.
A friend of mine asked me this question that I pass on to all who preach and believe they are saved by faith & grace alone without being born again in other than some "spiritual" unseen secret way. The question is
If you had 500 pagans and 500 christians in a mixed crowd, could you pick the christians by examining their check books, entertainment, cell phones, language, marriages, children, addictions, prejudices, politics, how they spend their time and voluntary service to others? Are "invisible" christians the natural product of the theory that Christianity is only "what you believe" and has nothing to do with a complete conversion of life, a new heart, a new mission and acceptance of our personal cross?
These and other lists of Jesus are a call for massive and total change from who you were to who you are becoming in the Power of the Holy Spirit. In my opinion, the entire corpus of the New Testament communicates one clear message, if you are not changed, you are not converted and you are not born again. The list you provided is Jesus telling us what kind of person we will become if we are truly converted, born again and have accepted our cross in life. Everyone claiming to be a Christian must ask ourselves, "Has my life changed radically?" Is it more important to me to blend in, be part to the system and have the respect from others? Just how "different" am I willing to be? Is it the hope of the unchanged life that just believing is all that is required? Has our Christianity been shaped and defined by what is convenient?
What if being born again is not something that happens in a moment of time, but over an entire life?
You just misrepresented the other guy. Not good! That's lying about others, also known as bearing false witness.
This is an exceptional post and is spot on. The last line is a perfect ending to it. It has to be over an entire life that's why Paul says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling
Ive listened to "the other side" for decades. The faces have changed but the words and attitude are too identical to be anything other than rote memorization.
I never said that Jesus' words are a counterfeit gospel which makes you a false accuser of the brethren.
[2Pe 3:15-16 KJV]
15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
What did Jesus say? (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)
The gospel is hid to those who don't believe the gospel by refusing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21: 15:1-4; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
Galatians 1:11 - But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Those things come from salvation, but salvation only comes as a free gift through/by Christ the Savior; therefore, neither does it come from (our) belief. Before becoming saved we were spiritually dead in sin and as spiritually dead, unable of ourselves, to correctly comprehend things spiritual. Therefore, a new heart, a new spirit, and renewed mind must first be given by God to those whom He saves but which are as a result of salvation and spiritual rebirth, not apart from it nor before it. It is all from/by God's exceeding mercy and grace through Christ the Savior, none of it is by man
[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
[Eze 36:25-27 KJV]
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
[Rom 12:2 KJV]
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
A crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30) This question regarding God's requirement for salvation (GRFS) is most important, because—as sinful and mortal souls—we need saving from corruption, both moral and physical. We need saving from physical death if we value or enjoy life, and we need saving from immorality or evil-doing if it results in unhappy existence, especially after this lifetime.
Jesus expressed GRFS succinctly by saying “Repent” (Matt. 4:17) and “Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7, Heb. 11:6, Isa. 45:19), implying that God gives every sinful soul the ability to repent and seek salvation (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, 2Tim. 2:25, Ezek. 33:11), which might be why Paul said sinners are saved “by grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 2:11). Seeking God is the beginning of saving faith, and not repenting or rejecting God’s salvation in Christ is the essence of evil atheism or faith in I-dolatry (Rom. 3:11, 1:18-23).
The reply of Paul and Silas to the jailer was, “Believe in the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 16:31). This is GRFS in a nutshell: “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as also in 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per Matt. 7:1&5, 2Cor. 13:5-8).
A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (Eph. 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. John 17:20-23, “May they be one…”). Thus, unity regarding the Gospel is more important than accuracy regarding doctrinal details.
Jesus expressed GRFS succinctly by saying “Repent” (Matt. 4:17) and “Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7, Heb. 11:6, Isa. 45:19), implying that God gives every sinful soul the ability to repent and seek salvation (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, 2Tim. 2:25, Ezek. 33:11), which might be why Paul said sinners are saved “by grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 2:11). Seeking God is the beginning of saving faith, and not repenting or rejecting God’s salvation in Christ is the essence of evil atheism or faith in I-dolatry (Rom. 3:11, 1:18-23).
The reply of Paul and Silas to the jailer was, “Believe in the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 16:31). This is GRFS in a nutshell: “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as also in 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
- There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or Creator God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who loves sinful humanity (Rom. 5:6-8, John 3:16) and who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
- Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
- Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
- Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13).
- Loving Christ Jesus as Lord (Luke 2:11), God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9) means reflecting divine love (DL) as empowered by the Holy Spirit, thereby obeying His command to love one another (Matt. 7:21, 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2), which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per Matt. 7:1&5, 2Cor. 13:5-8).
A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (Eph. 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. John 17:20-23, “May they be one…”). Thus, unity regarding the Gospel is more important than accuracy regarding doctrinal details.
You say I misrepresented you. I did not. I answered what you actually wrote.I never said that Jesus' words are a counterfeit gospel which makes you a false accuser of the brethren.
You said that connecting God’s Law, the Ten Commandments, to the gospel results in “grace plus law” and a “counterfeit gospel.” Those are your words. I did not twist them. I responded to them.
Now here is the issue you cannot escape.
In Gospel of Matthew 19:16–17, when a man asked Jesus, “What shall I do that I may have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” That is not my doctrine. That is Christ speaking plainly.
In Gospel of Matthew 7:21, He said not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom, but he that does the will of the Father. In Gospel of John 14:15, He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” In Gospel of Matthew 5:17–19, He warned against breaking even the least commandment and teaching others to do so.
So explain to me carefully: if speaking about obedience and commandments in relation to entering life is a “counterfeit gospel,” then what do you call the words of Jesus?
I never said we are saved by earning our way through law-keeping. I said the commandments are not separated from the plan of salvation. The cross makes forgiveness possible. But forgiveness does not mean rebellion becomes acceptable. Jesus did not die to give people permission to ignore what He taught.
You are reducing the gospel to one event only, as if the good news begins and ends at the crucifixion. But before the cross, Jesus preached repentance and the kingdom. He called people to obey God. He defined sin. He warned of judgment. After the resurrection, He told His disciples to teach people to observe all things He commanded (Matthew 28:20).
That is not “faith plus works.” That is faith that obeys the One it trusts.
You accuse me of misrepresentation because the implication of your statement is uncomfortable. But I quoted Christ. If that feels like an attack on your position, then the problem is not my wording. The problem is that your definition of the gospel does not leave room for the very things Jesus said about entering life.
I stand by what I wrote.
see answer above.
It is not that we need to add works in addition to our faith as if faith alone were insufficient but that we embody our faith through our works, such as with the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11 or with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works. To use an analogy, if two people came to a bridge that they were told was safe and the first person stood there mentally affirming that it was safe wile the second person crossed the bridge, then the second person would be experiencing what it means to have faith that the bridge is safe in a way that the first person is not and this is the of the Greek word "pistes" or the Hebrew word "emunah".Their EISEGESIS culminates in salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works. (Galatians 1:6-9) One former member of Christian Chat who was a Seventh Day Adventist confirmed this by his previous statement below:
The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.
The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
The gospel is hid to those who DO NOT BELIEVE. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Law of God (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in the Gospel that Jesus spent his ministry teaching and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God.
In Palms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.
Salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works is a false gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9; 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9) The gospel is not salvation by faith + obeying the 10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment) as SDA's basically teach.
There is nothing for me to escape. As I already previously explained to you before, Jesus' statement in Matthew 19:17 should have brought conviction to the rich young ruler but instead, he confidently (and self-righteously) declared that he has sufficiently kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms (which sounds familiar with certain folks in this thread). Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation. (John 3:18) The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.
In context, Jesus was exposing false prophets. (Matthew 7:15-23) What is the will of the Father in receiving eternal life? John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 14:15 - If you love me you will keep my commandments. (ESV) That is how we demonstrate our love for Jesus. BTW: the word "keep" does not mean sinless, perfect obedience.
So, according to you, salvation is by grace through faith + obeying the 10 commandments? (works) Is that what you believe Jesus taught us in (John 3:15,17,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) What about Paul in Romans 3:24-28; 4:5,6; 10:4; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9)? Don't let one verse trip you up and cause you to negate multiple verses.
Nobody said anything about rebellion. So, if the commandments are attached to salvation, then just how sufficiently must we obey them "in addition to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation" in order to be saved?
So, the gospel according to you is salvation through imperfect obedience? Good luck with that. John the Baptist and Jesus preached the good news of the kingdom to Israel prior to the cross (Matthew 3:1-2; 4:17) and after, we see testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21) Are you familiar with progressive revelation? (Ephesians 3:1-11) Also see 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 1:11-12)
If you believe we are saved by faith plus obedience/works then its faith plus works no matter how much you try to sugar coat it.
The problem is not with me or with Jesus. The problem is your EISEGESIS.
So, you stand by your false accusation against me. Not surprised.