Replacement theology? Yes or No.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Daniel 9:27 ...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...

Week = any time period of seven, ie days, months or years.
There are some who say that Daniel is referring to a seven day week (in the month of Nissan) in this verse.
I don't know if that is the right answer.

None the less, the words: "and he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease" is an accurate description of what Jesus did.
Jesus laid His life down willingly, and in that sense He was an active party and the CAUSE of the ending of the sacrifice.

But they did not cease for decades after that so how can it be about the cross?
 
Lol. What has that to do with a prophecy given to Daniel (a old testament saint), his people the sons of Jacob, his nation Israel, his holy city Jerusalem, and the restitution of all things Jewish?

Actually come to think about it being a fellow citizen in the household of God, the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:12), has a lot to do with Daniel.

You probably didn't realize it, but Dan is my brother.
We can only be brothers if we have the same Father, but through Dan's redeemer Jesus I also can call God my Father.

In Dan's time they called a family a "house", and our family is called "the house of Israel".
"Israel" is a good name, because a man can't wrestle with God and prevail without Jesus Christ.

Yeah, Israel.
I kind of like it.
I'll have that one.
 
You’ve correctly identified something many people miss:


Daniel 11 is not vague — it is precise history.


The first “abomination of desolation” was:


Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 BC
The first and only real actual bona fide biblical AoD in the entire history of mankind. There will not be a second one.

Later, Jesus refers to this event as a type — a pattern that would be repeated again at the end of the age.
Nope - no such thing - not going to happen.

And here is the FUTURE abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke about.
He did no such thing. You have misinterpreted scripture.
 
Passages where “IN THAT DAY” and “THE DAY OF THE LORD” describe the end-time judgment period that Jesus called the Great Tribulation.
Nope. The phrases "in that day" and "the day of the Lord" refer to the Second Coming of Christ.

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Second_Coming.html

This is what the prophets called:


“The Day of the LORD”
“In that Day”
“The time of Jacob’s Trouble”
“The Great Tribulation”

They are the same event.
Nope. The time of Jacob's trouble is Armageddon - and, neither it nor the other two phrases refer to the 'Great Tribulation'.
 
But they did not cease for decades after that so how can it be about the cross?
Its not about what "they" did, it is about what God did.
Animal sacrifices made after the cross not only did failed to ask atonement for sin, but they were in themselves grievous sins of blasphemy.
The crucifixion changed everything about sacrifice.
 
Well then by your own standard, this MUST have already occurred! Right?
So did it? Or not?

Mat 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

Mat 24:16 - Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
This much has been fulfilled - circa 70 A.D. (Please note that I did not say that the 'great tribulation' has ended.)

Mat 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
This is still yet future.
 
The fact is.....you have no answer. Nor does any preterist or historicist.
@GaryA did a disappearing act to save face evidently.
Or, perhaps, GaryA has not been able to login to the site for a couple of days. :p

Mat 24:37
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Still yet future.
 
It can refer to a literal temple as well.

G3485
ναός
naos
Thayer Definition:
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice
2) any heathen temple or shrine
3) metaphorically the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a primary naio (to dwell)

Well, you could be right there too.
It could play out as follows:

1. Flash building goes up in Jerusalem.
2. Evil tyrant lives there brutalizing the world with high tech wonders.
3. Christians start suddenly disappearing into his extermination camps.
4. Those of us that survive get told that they are raptured, and you missed the bus.

It seems unfair that Christian-Zionists that supported that genocidal regime would get to rupture their Rses out of here.
I hope that pre-trib stuff is not true.
 
Both sides of this issue are part right and part wrong. Israel will be a [biblical] nation again - during the Millennium. However, they will not be going back to the old ways. The way to salvation is identically the same for both Jews and Gentiles. All are "grafted in" together under the same covenant. Be careful to not confuse the covenant relationship with the existence of Israel as a nation during the Millennium. They still have a part to play in the realm of 'God's Plan' for humanity.

Israel has not been "replaced"; however, there is now a better covenant - wherein Jew and Gentile alike share in the same promises.

Hebrews 8:

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
 
Daniel 9:27 ...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...

Week = any time period of seven, ie days, months or years.
There are some who say that Daniel is referring to a seven day week (in the month of Nissan) in this verse.
I don't know if that is the right answer.

None the less, the words: "and he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease" is an accurate description of what Jesus did.
Jesus laid His life down willingly, and in that sense He was an active party and the CAUSE of the ending of the sacrifice.
Please check this out and let me know if it makes sense to you...

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html
 
Please check this out and let me know if it makes sense to you...

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

I have read your link with interest, and would recommend it to others.
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

The author follows the thoughts I have already had about the passage, but goes into greater detail than I ever have.
I have never made the effort to verify the mathematics of events and days with much precision, but have been satisfied that the 490 years reaches to the vicinity of a time when Christ is newly risen.
I understand where he is coming from when he speaks about "times of the Jews" and "times of the Gentiles", but would not be inclined to repeat that sort of framing.
We are a new creature in Jesus and completely lost outside, and I am sick of people treating Jews and Gentiles as if they are different species.
His reference to Mark 15:38 "And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." addresses something significant that I would love to see more discussion about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GaryA
Actually come to think about it being a fellow citizen in the household of God, the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:12), has a lot to do with Daniel.

You probably didn't realize it, but Dan is my brother.
We can only be brothers if we have the same Father, but through Dan's redeemer Jesus I also can call God my Father.

In Dan's time they called a family a "house", and our family is called "the house of Israel".
"Israel" is a good name, because a man can't wrestle with God and prevail without Jesus Christ.

Yeah, Israel.
I kind of like it.
I'll have that one.

They just don't get it. Being part of the Israel of GOD is by GOD's choice; it's not a right endowed by physical birth; it's whosoever will, come. Jacob prophesied that the seed of Israel would become a fullness of gentiles. Natural Israelites would not surname themselves with the name of Israel when they already were called Israel.

Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses. One shall say, I am YHWH's, and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall engrave his hand unto YHWH, and surname himself by the name of Israel. Isaiah 44:1-5
Surname
H3655 כָּנָה kanah (kaw-naw') v.
1. to address by an additional name.
 
All are "grafted in" together under the same covenant.

This is what many don't get. The new covenant was made with the houses of Israel and Judah in the persons of the 11 disciples, and no one else. Any others are grafted into that covenant by faith in their words.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HeIsHere
It seems unfair that Christian-Zionists that supported that genocidal regime would get to rupture their Rses out of here.
I hope that pre-trib stuff is not true.

That's a good play on words because the faith of those who believe in it will be ruptured when it doesn't happen.
 
This much has been fulfilled - circa 70 A.D. (Please note that I did not say that the 'great tribulation' has ended.)


This is still yet future.
173,880 days, exactly 69 weeks of years to 10th Nisan 33AD (Triumphal entry). Perfect to the very hour.
And yet you are postulating a 2000 year great tribulation that you say constitutes the 70th week?

A patently absurd theory by any measure.

Just to remind you:
The futurist view is correct because:
- it fulfills all prophecy without fail, every last utterance
- there are no paradoxes
- all scripture harmonizes flawlessly
- it concatenates perfectly with THE SEVEN FEASTS OF MOSES PROPHETIC PATTERN
- it concatenates perfectly with THE PASSOVER PATTERN
- it makes room for the Church age gentile Bride and Rapture PATTERN
- and last but not least, it glorifies Christ and His word

Oh and BTW, God never pours out covenantal wrath on His redeemed people.

That is why:
• Enoch left
• Lot left
• Rahab left
• Ruth married
• Joseph’s bride secured
• Isaac’s bride sheltered
• Daniel absent
• Elijah taken

And then judgment comes.

Why this matters

The pre-tribulation rapture is not built on one verse — it is built on the entire architecture of Scripture.

It is how God has always worked.

“For God hath not appointed us to wrath…” (1 Thess 5:9)
 
  • Like
Reactions: ThereRoseaLamb
Well, you could be right there too.
It could play out as follows:

1. Flash building goes up in Jerusalem.
2. Evil tyrant lives there brutalizing the world with high tech wonders.
3. Christians start suddenly disappearing into his extermination camps.
4. Those of us that survive get told that they are raptured, and you missed the bus.

It seems unfair that Christian-Zionists that supported that genocidal regime would get to rupture their Rses out of here.
I hope that pre-trib stuff is not true.

It is not true, so no worries.
 
It doesn't sound like the crucifixion was a abomination to God to me but rather the opposite. When is victory a abomination?

Jhn 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jhn 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

The victory was the Resurrection.

The crucifixion was the ultimate act of injustice—the greatest abomination ever committed against God.

The Holy One of Israel, who had no sin was brutally executed.
No building, no earthly event, no military campaign could possibly match the gravity of this act.

Upon His unjust murder, desolation followed ... the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD followed but the real devastation was a spiritual desolation that resulted from Israel's rejection of their Messiah.

They severed their own connection to God through this act, fulfilling what Daniel foresaw.
They, individually, can be grafted back in to Christ Jesus via Belief and Faith in Him.
(from a correct commentary)
 
The victory was the Resurrection.

The crucifixion was the ultimate act of injustice—the greatest abomination ever committed against God.

The Holy One of Israel, who had no sin was brutally executed.
No building, no earthly event, no military campaign could possibly match the gravity of this act.

Upon His unjust murder, desolation followed ... the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD followed but the real devastation was a spiritual desolation that resulted from Israel's rejection of their Messiah.

They severed their own connection to God through this act, fulfilling what Daniel foresaw.
They, individually, can be grafted back in to Christ Jesus via Belief and Faith in Him.
(from a correct commentary)

Oh I agree it was so gruesome to say the least. But my friend it was all orchestrated by God. From the trial to the cross and fulfilled old time sin presentation. He died according to scripture.
Jesus was and is the lamb of God not the lamb of men. Voluntarily laying down his life.
For the glory that was set before him he endured the cross.
this was not a murder as you have perceived it to be but a sacrifice he allowed because he thought you and i were worth it.
there was no othe way as his garden prayer revealed so he placed his life in the hands of the father saying...nevertheless thy will be done.
Jesus surrendered at the garden knowing full well what must take place.
Gods requirement for sin was and is a blood sacrifice for without it there is no remission of sin.
Acting as the high priest of the kingdom to come he offered himself.

seriously all that political mis trial hoopla was misdirection take a closer look .
As John the Baptist siad......behold The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. .......mission acomplished praise God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ThereRoseaLamb