Loss of salvation???

[James456]

You may want to take a look at the actual scripture.

So might you, the Holy Spirit does NOT dwell in the unsaved, so neither do Father and son

 

[Wansvic]

If I may, do you see the identifiers of "primary" or "secondary" or anything else in any of that context that would set up some sort of priorities?

Also, you're still gravitating in the direction of the fallacy known as an argument from silence. I've asked and will ask again where Paul ever commanded water baptism as an element of salvation? Can you at least show that to us?



By implication you're indeed accusing Paul of having omitted the element of water baptism for salvation.

For you to say that water baptism is an element required for salvation, coupled with Paul never having said anything of the kind anywhere throughout any of his epistles, you are in essence accusing him of having omitted what you are indirectly claiming to have been left out. What else could anyone call that? Either he omitted it or he didn't. It can't be both or anything in between, so please tell us all, what is it if not the sin of omission? Is there some gray area out there somewhere that the scriptures uphold as a defining practice for Paul having left that out in his express and explicit list of what's required for salvation?



Actually, no. Incorrect, my friend:

1 Corinthians 15:2-4
2 By which also ye are saved [Why do you continue to ignore this?], if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The language leaves no room for anything else as pertains to salvation. He delivered FIRST of all faith in the death of Christ AND the burial AND the resurrection on the third day, and that which was delivered FIRST of all to them that BY WHICH WE ARE SAVED. Anything else after that, then, are not elements of salvation, although can be beneficial to the expressions of one's faith and one's affiliations.



I neglected nothing. You will search in vain throughout ALL of his epistles where he ever declared water baptism an element of salvation. Instead, you continue to inject into the texts that which is nowhere stated by Paul. I've asked numerous times for you to show to me an explicit declaration from Paul that water baptism was ever a requirement for salvation, and all I'm seeing so far is you injecting what isn't there. Please explain that.

Bottom line, if you think you can add to the already sufficient salvation there is in the shed Blood of Christ Jesus through your efforts for water baptism and any other work of effort on your part, then go for it. You can believe in your salvation on whatever basis you so choose. It's no skin off my back. We all are responsible for what we choose to believe, but dare we preach another gospel other than that which was delivered to us by Paul, such a one is accursed.

MM

That which was delivered first in 1 Cor. 15 pertained to what was being addressed in the chapter; the resurrection.

Paul made it clear baptism was an essential element of salvation:
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Paul states many times that those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Paul understood what that meant. God sent Ananias who instructed him what he must do; Why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling upon the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16)

There is but one gospel, and both Peter and Paul preached it.

 

[sawdust]

Do you remember not long ago I shared with you how much of a lie that was?

LOL What part was a lie?

To believe on Christ for salvation? That He atoned for our sins? That salvation is based on Christ's work, His death and His resurrection and there is nothing you can do that would satisfy God's holy justice and take away your sin?

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Nothing you do takes away your sin, only what Christ did and only by His baptism with the Spirit are you placed in Him where your sins are forgiven. His blood remits sin. We are in a New covenant where the symbols (water) have been replaced with the reality.

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


It makes me sad you don't understand that and you think there is something you must do to add to Christ's work to secure your salvation.

Do you not comprehend that being saved means you are born again and forgiven? And how is one saved?

John 3:15
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

How does one die in their sin? By not believing the Gospel of Christ.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”


I'll raise my hundreds of verses that testify salvation is through faith alone to your couple of verses that you think require faith and works.

 

[sawdust]

Acts 10:47-48 makes it clear that being baptized in the name of the Lord/Jesus is water baptism. Note as well that Acts 10:43 makes a reference to water baptism. "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name (Jesus) whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

"Can any man forbid WATER, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized (How?) in the name of the Lord." Acts 10:47-48

You keep raising Peter's mistake which he corrected in Acts 11 as justification for water baptism. Just because something happened doesn't mean it was the will of God. The scripture is full of people getting it wrong or doing it wrong. Moses struck the rock but the Lord still acted. Our errors do not prevent the Lord working His will. Even today, there are churches who abide with errors that date back millennia. What are we to do? Include the lot simply because that is the way it was done?

In the case of Cornelius, the Lord had already baptized the people there and what Peter did was superfluous and not in any way needed which is what he later worked out when he was recounting the story in Acts 11.

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Being baptized with the Spirit is the only baptism required.

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

 

[Howdy]

Dat by day, if you read my post you would understand what I am saying.
We have to die daily, not weekly or every month.
Sin will NOT enter Heaven.

I assume by your post that you believe we must live a sinless life and if we sin we lose our salvation.

 

[James456]

I assume by your post that you believe we must live a sinless life and if we sin we lose our salvation.

What they mean in effect, is a watered down version of the law, and therefore a watered down version of sin .

 

[mailmandan]

JESUS said we have to be born of water and of spirit.

See (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) Have you considered living water?

You say it's my pet verse which says very cleayly how we get rid of our sins.

In Acts 2:38, for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

I all 4 cases of people being reborn, Jew first, Acts 2, Smeritans in Acts 8, Gentiles in Acts 10 and the Ephens in Acts 19 used that verse as their foudation.

In all 4 cases they were saved through repentance/belief/faith which is in perfect harmony with (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31: 26:18)

Can you show anywhere else anyone was born of water and of spirit the verse you shared???

Water baptism is not the only water mentioned in scripture. Have you considered living water? (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) Water is also used in scripture as an emblem of the word of God and is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

No you can't, SO how do you put those along side?

Are you really this confused?

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Repentance (belief/faith already implied or assumed) and remission of sins with no mention of baptism.

THIS IS THAT MESSAGE!!

Same message with baptism not mentioned in one verse and parenthetical in the other verse.

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Already explained.

You don't believe we need to be baptized in JESUS name to remove and our sins, then you talk about Logic?

I don't believe your eisegesis. To be baptized in Jesus name is a reference to authority. By the authority of Jesus (Matthew 28:18) we are to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19)

Can you show me ANY of your verse where it tells us how to get rid of our sins or people getting the Holy Ghost? someone was saved with faith alone?

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18)

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.

Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

 

[Howdy]

All who believe salvation can be lost must is saying that our salvation is in our own hands.
It is up to each of us after we believe and are saved must keep ourselves saved.
To believe water baptism is also necessary is to bring a third person into the process.
That is saying Jesus is not strong enough and he needs our help and a third party to complete the process.
That is works for salvation even though they will deny it.
It is all in Jesus. He does not need the help of others.
If a person must keep his salvation by what he does or does not do in this sinful flesh, then Heaven will be empty.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

A few answers the the question you have posted.

Backsliding exists

Nobody is helped by needing Salvation, that conversation is for people who are being responsible.

Souls wander for a long time and are often not in charge of what they eat or wear.

This free gift is ancillary to the reason why saved believers might just be worrying about bills.

Worrying that you are not saved is better than not worrying about it, paradoxically.

True happiness belongs to a person who has salvation, in the present tense.

Salvation is guaranteed, but showing interest in having this critical.


Neil

 

[Genez]

Speculate according to what is actually written, and make an informed view concerning that. When Jesus told people there sins were given, there is no record of him first checking if they had been baptised in water

He would not check, because no need.
Jesus knew the real plan of God.

 

[Genez]

Have you seen the verse on how we get rid of our sins?

You keep sinning in what you do.

 

[Genez]

After the cross the bible makes specific reference to others who water baptized individuals; Philip the Evangelist, Ananias, Apollos, and the Apostle Paul. Are you suggesting that they too were just clinging to old ways?

Consider the prophesy Jesus spoke prior to ascending into Heaven. Jesus revealed repentance and remission of sins would be preached in His name. It was at Pentecost that the command to Repent, and be Baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS FOR REMISSION OF SINS was first preached. We know the baptism command was in fact water baptism because Peter was instructing those who asked what THEY MUST DO. (Acts 2:36-39) It was at that point that water baptism began to be administered in the name of Jesus as it directly relates to His sacrifice. When John the Baptist introduced water baptism no one even knew the name of the Messiah or what the future held for Jesus.

"And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things." Luke 24:46-48

Yes they continued with what they had always done before.
When the Church age began God did not hand everyone a copy of the NT.
They were all learning on the run.

Remissions of sins? = understanding the blood of Jesus!

Repentance? Jews who had been resisting Jesus needed to have a change of mind.
Repentance? Gentiles needed to drop their pagan practices.

 

[Ouch]

LOL What part was a lie?

To believe on Christ for salvation? That He atoned for our sins? That salvation is based on Christ's work, His death and His resurrection and there is nothing you can do that would satisfy God's holy justice and take away your sin?

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Nothing you do takes away your sin, only what Christ did and only by His baptism with the Spirit are you placed in Him where your sins are forgiven. His blood remits sin. We are in a New covenant where the symbols (water) have been replaced with the reality.

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


It makes me sad you don't understand that and you think there is something you must do to add to Christ's work to secure your salvation.

Do you not comprehend that being saved means you are born again and forgiven? And how is one saved?

John 3:15
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

How does one die in their sin? By not believing the Gospel of Christ.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”


I'll raise my hundreds of verses that testify salvation is through faith alone to your couple of verses that you think require faith and works.

What part is a lie? I let you finger it out for yourself if, IF you answer these questions.



Can you back up this up with his SCRIPTURE????

Breaking down your commment.

To believe on Christ for salvation? That He atoned for our sins? That salvation is based on Christ's work, His death and His resurrection and there is nothing you can do that would satisfy God's holy justice and take away your sin?

1. To believe on Christ for salvation? Beliveing is the first part, were good.

"That He atoned for our sins? That salvation is based on Christ's work, His death and His resurrection and"

2. there is nothing you can do that would satisfy God's holy justice and take away your sin?

The second part of your of that statement.

Nothing you do takes away your sin, only what Christ did and only by His baptism with the Spirit are you placed in Him where your sins are forgiven. His blood remits sin. We are in a New covenant where the symbols (water) have been replaced with the reality.

1. Nothing you do takes away your sin.

2. only what Christ did and only by His baptism with the Spirit are you placed in Him where your sins are forgiven

3. His blood remits sin, is a given.

4. We are in a New covenant where the symbols (water) have been replaced with the reality.

I would never debate GODS word.

Why do you say I don't comprehend how to be saved? and how we are forgiven?

ME, 1. Believe,
2. Repent,
3. Get baptized to remove our sins,
4. JESUS fills us with His Spirit and you will speak in tongues.

YOU, 1. Believe.

YOU CAN NOT SHARE ONE VERSE THAT SPECIFICALLY SAYS, IF YOU BELIEVE YOUR SAVED!!!! NOT ONE AND YOU NEED TWO!!!

PLEASE, PLEASE just answer the questions.

 

[Ouch]

I assume by your post that you believe we must live a sinless life and if we sin we lose our salvation.

It's imposible to live a sin less life,

1 John 1:8-10
King James Version
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

After we have been reborn, when we sin, we need to repent and confess those sins.

 

[Ouch]

See (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) Have you considered living water?

In Acts 2:38, for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

In all 4 cases they were saved through repentance/belief/faith which is in perfect harmony with (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31: 26:18)

Water baptism is not the only water mentioned in scripture. Have you considered living water? (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) Water is also used in scripture as an emblem of the word of God and is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Are you really this confused?

Repentance (belief/faith already implied or assumed) and remission of sins with no mention of baptism.

Same message with baptism not mentioned in one verse and parenthetical in the other verse.

Already explained.

I don't believe your eisegesis. To be baptized in Jesus name is a reference to authority. By the authority of Jesus (Matthew 28:18) we are to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19)

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18)

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.

Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

I'm not reading all of that, I know you just keep putting the same versee over and over like they will make HIS word change.

Can you keep it simple and just tell me why you don't like these verse?

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16
King James Version
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Just tell me why you will not accept how we get rid of our sins.

And we can end this never ending debate.

 

[Ouch]

You keep sinning in what you do.

How do you know?

 

[Howdy]

What part is a lie? I let you finger it out for yourself if, IF you answer these questions.



Can you back up this up with his SCRIPTURE????

Breaking down your commment.

To believe on Christ for salvation? That He atoned for our sins? That salvation is based on Christ's work, His death and His resurrection and there is nothing you can do that would satisfy God's holy justice and take away your sin?

1. To believe on Christ for salvation? Beliveing is the first part, were good.

"That He atoned for our sins? That salvation is based on Christ's work, His death and His resurrection and"

2. there is nothing you can do that would satisfy God's holy justice and take away your sin?

The second part of your of that statement.

Nothing you do takes away your sin, only what Christ did and only by His baptism with the Spirit are you placed in Him where your sins are forgiven. His blood remits sin. We are in a New covenant where the symbols (water) have been replaced with the reality.

1. Nothing you do takes away your sin.

2. only what Christ did and only by His baptism with the Spirit are you placed in Him where your sins are forgiven

3. His blood remits sin, is a given.

4. We are in a New covenant where the symbols (water) have been replaced with the reality.

I would never debate GODS word.

Why do you say I don't comprehend how to be saved? and how we are forgiven?

ME, 1. Believe,
2. Repent,
3. Get baptized to remove our sins,
4. JESUS fills us with His Spirit and you will speak in tongues.

YOU, 1. Believe.

YOU CAN NOT SHARE ONE VERSE THAT SPECIFICALLY SAYS, IF YOU BELIEVE YOUR SAVED!!!! NOT ONE AND YOU NEED TWO!!!

PLEASE, PLEASE just answer the questions.

So now you want to add tongues as a sign of salvation.
If I do not speak in tongues, are you saying I am not saved.
I have been dealing with that false belief in my area for almost 20 years now.
Every so often I will encounter a Pentecost preacher standing in front of Walmart making all kinds of sounds no one understands as he "preaches".
I have been told all Pentecost do not believe all who are saved will speak in tongues, but every one I have encountered will admit it if you press them.

 

[Howdy]

It's imposible to live a sin less life,

1 John 1:8-10
King James Version
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

After we have been reborn, when we sin, we need to repent and confess those sins.

You finally posted something I agree with.
So if we can lose our salvation, what sin causes that?

 

[James456]

So now you want to add tongues as a sign of salvation.
If I do not speak in tongues, are you saying I am not saved.
I have been dealing with that false belief in my area for almost 20 years now.
Every so often I will encounter a Pentecost preacher standing in front of Walmart making all kinds of sounds no one understands as he "preaches".
I have been told all Pentecost do not believe all who are saved will speak in tongues, but every one I have encountered will admit it if you press them.

Not all pentecostals believe you must speak in tongues to prove you are saved, only oneness pentecostals as far as I know
In the UK the two main pentecostal denominations are Elim and AOG, neither of them insist you must speak in tongues as proof you are saved

 

[Just_A__Follower]

So now you want to add tongues as a sign of salvation.
If I do not speak in tongues, are you saying I am not saved.
I have been dealing with that false belief in my area for almost 20 years now.
Every so often I will encounter a Pentecost preacher standing in front of Walmart making all kinds of sounds no one understands as he "preaches".
I have been told all Pentecost do not believe all who are saved will speak in tongues, but every one I have encountered will admit it if you press them.

According to ouch about 85% of Christians aren’t saved.