Ephesians 2 is not preaching faith alone.

[Gideon300]

I’ll have to disagree on that one. Jesus emptied himself as in making himself a servant and humbling himself. He didn’t give up His deity. He was and is still God. He exercised faith but not the way we exercise faith. We exercise faith as in believing in something unseen and with hope. He exercised faith as trusting the Father, the way we have faith that our parents would feed us. He had perfect experiential, intellectual, and relational knowledge of the Father. We exercise faith without that full knowledge, hopeful and believing that He is faithful. He had zero doubts about the Fathers existence.

Faith is faith. The difference is Lord Jesus never doubted. We being still in our natural bodies have a great disadvantage. We can be led astray by Satan whereas Lord Jesus defeated Satan totally. We are still subject to doubts and fears.

As the believer matures, we are less prone to doubt. We will come to the place where God's Word is absolute to us, not our opinions and where we trust whether we feel like it or not.

We can also move out of the realm of "our" faith and live by the faith of the Son of God (Galatians 2:20). I dislike the KJV, but it translates "faith in the Son of God" as "the faith of the Son of God. Modern translators reject that interpretation, but it is literally what it says. I can understand why some are sceptical. The "Word of Faith" people latch onto that interpretation but then twist it to promote their false doctrine. I'll gladly exchange my fallible and weak faith for the faith of Jesus.

 

[Inquisitor]

You forget that Jesus lived on earth as Man, not God. Jesus emptied Himself of all that made Him God. So yes, Jesus exercised faith. If you want chapter and verse, I'll quote it. I'm a bit busy right now.

I am patient.

 

[ATG]

In regard to 1 John 5:16, certain folks jump to the conclusion that John is talking about a believer committing a certain sin that leads them to spiritual death, but that does not fit the context.

Correct. Spiritual death by sinning is immediate with the finished act:

Jas 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

All sin and transgression begins with lusting against the Spirit of God, but until the lust is fulfilled by transgression, the soul does not die to God:

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

It's not until the the fruit was eaten, that Adam and Eve died spiritually to God as warned against.

It's lust of heart that leads to sin and death, not committed sin leading to spiritual death after some 'grace' period.

1 John 5:16 is talking about a brother or sister sinning and seeking repentance, vs one that returns to sin without repentance unto bodily death.

There is a common space of God's longsuffering grace, where God does not allow the unrepented sinner to also bodily die:

Rev 2:20
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

The unrepeated spiritually dead, ought be at least thanking God, that they are not yet spiritually dead unto the grave. Everyday is one more day of longsuffering grace to repent, because it's too late to repent from the grave:

Heb{9:27}
It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So, John is exhorting the righteous brethren to pray for them caught up in unrighteousness, that seek repentance from the heart.

Jas 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The saints are exhorted not to waste prayer and time mourning over them that forsake the Lord, and even despising the conviction of the Spirit of grace unto death.

As when the LORD told Samuel to stop mourning over King Saul, who had forsaken the LORD, and so forsaken by the LORD to his own transgression unto his death in defeated battle.

1Sa 16:1
And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.

The exhortation to pray for brethren caught up in unrepented sin and trespass, is not only for their sakes, but also our own. By intercessory prayer for another, we don't become highminded in our own righteousness, as though we could never likewise fall. But rather we must continue in the Spirit of grace ourselves, and be ready to restore the fallen to the fellowship of the brethren:

Gal 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

 

[ATG]

The In regard to 1 John 1:7, in verse 6 we read - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

*Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. *Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. *Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

This chimes in with the Faith Alone religion of representative Christianity. They don't exactly walk like Jesus, but only represent Him on earth in their own way. Which is most commonly the way of doing righteousness and unrighteousness, representing a lukewarm Christ, not Jesus Christ the Righteous:

Rev 3:15
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

So, now we have descriptive Christianity with descriptive Christians, who are descriptively saved and justified, walking descriptively by faith, and hoping for a descriptive resurrection into a descriptive heaven, rather than a descriptive hell.

Sounds exactly like a Christian parable, rather than the written doctrine and pure religion of Jesus Christ, that walks in the light, and no darkness at all:
1Jo 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Jas 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

It's obviously why some descriptive Christians have their own description of Christian living and sin. An apt description of Faith Alone Christianity.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is connected with children of the devil.

Notice that anyone naming Christ and doing works of darkness does not love Jesus nor His brethren, but in heart heart hates them.

1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

 

[ATG]

How many times does one have to sin before they become a sinner?

Spot on. You'll never get a solid answer, because it's the secular relative moralism of unbelieving and Christian sinners alike.

What you will also never here, is any Christian saying that their own 'times' of sinning, is one too many times.

Once anyone rejects the Bible truth, that someone doing the bad act, is the bad actor. Then they become the judges of bad acting relative to themselves.

Which is also why they never repent of doing their own time to time bad acting, and stop acting that way at all.

Eph 4:28
Let him that stole steal no more:

 

[ATG]

Progressive Christian sanctification is man's own timeline of repentance. Which is always relative to their past, and never ceasing at present.

By their own faith alone, they do not believe in whole sanctification from all sins and trespasses, at any one time. And yet, they are certain that they are at once wholly saved and justified by that same faith alone:

1 Cor 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Jesus Christ's faith says that He justifies and sanctifies at the same time at once, so that the thief ceases thieving. And fornicating, and lying, and profane cursing, and murdering, and whatever the newborn child of God did in times past.

Jas 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That's why repenting from all sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, is necessary for Jesus Christ the righteous to deliver from all past sinning and trespass, to become a whole new creation of God:

2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Having only some things passed away, and only some things now of God, is the relatively new creation of man's religion, not the wholly new creature, with all old things passed away, and all new things of God.

Being a newborn babe of Jesus Christ, is without any past record of bad works, and a whole new beginning of life with God.

 

[ATG]

Indeed, if no change in your life when you get justified by faith alone, no saving faith

Everything you said is reasonably true in Scripture and life by faith toward God.

However, I'm wondering what you at, least grammatically insist on speaking of a faith, that Scripture says is dead, if without works? Is it something you have to say? As though you would be violating some unspoken 'rule' by simply leaving it as Scripture would say, Indeed, if no change in your life when you get justified by faith, (it's) no saving faith.

Grammar alone forbids preaching any kind of faith 'alone', since God says those words together are dead to Him.

Also, it doesn't make any practical sense. How can anyone have a faith that saves the soul, but does not also justify the man? By definition faith alone is without works, but if we are only justified by faith with works, then we no longer have that 'saving' faith alone with works.

Faith alone is always without works, and can never 'become' faith with works.

Conclusion: how can anyone only be saved by faith alone without works, and only be justified by faith with works? Is there some sort of isolated Faith Alone, that is only in the soul, and is not the practicing faith, that is only with the body? The former remains saving the soul, no matter what the latter faith is doing in practice?

These things must be answered sufficiently by Scripture. Otherwise, any kind of 'Faith Alone' salvation without works, is just an imaginary ideal, and idol of the mind alone. It's not a faith that is standing and working on solid ground.

1Co 14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1Co 14:9
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Best not to try and bring Paul and James into conflict with each other

Amen to that. No dead faith alone without works can save a man. Neither can any works without faith justify the man.

 

[mailmandan]

You are justified by faith alone, but true faith will then bring forth results

Yes, it is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[ATG]

Sure, as long as we're not presenting works as toward carrying out justice on our own behalf. We are to trust God's judgment toward all things.

True, I guess. That wouldn't be a work justified by Jesus Christ.

Vigilante justice is not NT gospel of Christ, as it was by law of Moses:

Num 35:19
The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him. But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die; Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote him shall surely be put to death; for he is a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him.

That's why there's no mercy cities appointed by Jesus among the churches of God.

 

[Inquisitor]

This chimes in with the Faith Alone religion of representative Christianity. They don't exactly walk like Jesus, but only represent Him on earth in their own way. Which is most commonly the way of doing righteousness and unrighteousness, representing a lukewarm Christ, not Jesus Christ the Righteous:

Rev 3:15
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

So, now we have descriptive Christianity with descriptive Christians, who are descriptively saved and justified, walking descriptively by faith, and hoping for a descriptive resurrection into a descriptive heaven, rather than a descriptive hell.

Sounds exactly like a Christian parable, rather than the written doctrine and pure religion of Jesus Christ, that walks in the light, and no darkness at all:
1Jo 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Jas 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

It's obviously why some descriptive Christians have their own description of Christian living and sin. An apt description of Faith Alone Christianity.



Notice that anyone naming Christ and doing works of darkness does not love Jesus nor His brethren, but in heart heart hates them.

1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

So many accusations and finger pointing.

You seem to think that someone has to have a perfect repentance before they become a Christian?

You also seem to think that your better than many other Christians?

You promote faith and works for salvation.

The scripture states that salvation is a free gift.

How can salvation be a free gift if your working for it?

 

[ATG]

I am saved by my faith alone and you are saved by your faith plus your works. That’s fine. You are free to believe what you like. You are also free to completely misunderstand what others mean when they say that no matter how many times they explain it to you.

I am saved by the faith of Jesus, and you are saved by your faith alone. That’s fine. You are free to believe what you like. You are also free to completely misunderstand what others mean when they say something, no matter how many times they explain it to you.

You should also maybe look at righteousness being received vs righteousness being achieved and figure out the difference.

No thanks. After a time, I get tired of deciphering 'Faith Alone speak'. There comes a time for the Faith Alone speaker to start talking in plain words of Scripture:

2Co 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

 

[Inquisitor]

Also, it doesn't make any practical sense. How can anyone have a faith that saves the soul, but does not also justify the man? By definition faith alone is without works, but if we are only justified by faith with works, then we no longer have that 'saving' faith alone with works.

Here is what you said.

By definition faith alone is without works, but if we are only justified by faith with works,
then we no longer have that 'saving' faith alone with works.

There is only one way that can save anyone and that is by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

To put your trust in Jesus Christ is the only way you can receive the Holy Spirit.

No one can bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit without first receiving the Holy Spirit.

Real works cannot exist without the Holy Spirit.

Even a genuine repentance is impossible without the Holy Spirit.

Belief in Jesus is the first port of call and all things flow from that indwelling Holy Spirit.

That is enough; no more faith plus works for salvation.

Salvation is always in the form of a free gift given to those that call on the name of the Lord.

 

[ATG]

Faith and work are the two sides of one coin, work is the PROOF of salvation. You don't work FOR salvation, you work BECAUSE of salvation.

Exactly. Without works, one's faith has no proof of being alive to save any man. It remains dead faith alone without works.

Jas 2:1
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

The faith of our Lord Jesus Christ is not faith alone, nor is it faith with evil works. They both have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Only them doing good have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ:

3 John{1:11}
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that is doing good is of God: but he that is doing evil hath not seen God.

 

[ATG]

"Faith alone" doesn't think at all.

That's because it's dead.

You don't understand what "faith alone" means.

Faith alone means it doesn't think, because it's dead?

 

[ATG]

You don't understand what "faith alone" means.

Faith alone means it doesn't think, because it's dead?

How many times does someone have to repeat your own words about Faith Alone, in order to understand it, if you don't understand you're own words yourself?

I believe that's because Faith Alone is just an imaginary ideal in the minds of people that have it, and so can't really explain it in words easy enough, that can be understood by them that don't have it.

1Co 14:9
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

It's a great mystery to them that have it, and an even greater mystery to them that don't. Sort of like 'Mystery Babylon'.

That's why it's so much easier and clearer to just quote Scripture, and let Jesus Christ Himself explain His faith, that some have from Him.

Ex:
Jas 2:1
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

We see that Jesus says Himself, that no one has His faith with evil works. Therefore, them that have His faith do always those things that please him.

Now, it's just a matter of whether anyone believes the Scripture or not, since such plain words can't be misunderstood. And then whether anyone that does believe in having the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, also seeks to have His faith for themselves in life, to do good and not evil.

Luk 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Only with them doing good, and not evil.

 

[ATG]

Luke 11:13
Acts 2:38
Galatians 3:2
Ephesians 1:13

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves [the Holy Spirit is] the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. Because we are His creation created in Christ Jesus for good works which God has pre ordained that we should walk in them.

Contextually interpreted Ephesians 2:8-10

Fair enough, since most of it is quoting Scripture, rather than conceptually interpreting, as with the word 'Alone'.

Here's another:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves [the grace and faith is] the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. Because we are His creation created in Christ Jesus for good works which God has pre ordained that we should walk in them.

Mine is confined to the context of the verse itself. But yours is certainly in context of all Scripture: The Holy Ghost is given with the grace and faith of God by Jesus Christ to do good works. Or, perhaps better, the Holy Ghost is given by Jesus Christ with His grace and faith to do good works.

His grace and faith is not given with evil works.

Jas 2:1
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

 

[Dino246]

How many times does someone have to repeat your own words about Faith Alone, in order to understand it, if you don't understand you're own words yourself?

Another silly question.

 

[James456]

Everything you said is reasonably true in Scripture and life by faith toward God.

However, I'm wondering what you at, least grammatically insist on speaking of a faith, that Scripture says is dead, if without works? Is it something you have to say? As though you would be violating some unspoken 'rule' by simply leaving it as Scripture would say, Indeed, if no change in your life when you get justified by faith, (it's) no saving faith.

Grammar alone forbids preaching any kind of faith 'alone', since God says those words together are dead to Him.

Also, it doesn't make any practical sense. How can anyone have a faith that saves the soul, but does not also justify the man? By definition faith alone is without works, but if we are only justified by faith with works, then we no longer have that 'saving' faith alone with works.

Faith alone is always without works, and can never 'become' faith with works.

Conclusion: how can anyone only be saved by faith alone without works, and only be justified by faith with works? Is there some sort of isolated Faith Alone, that is only in the soul, and is not the practicing faith, that is only with the body? The former remains saving the soul, no matter what the latter faith is doing in practice?

These things must be answered sufficiently by Scripture. Otherwise, any kind of 'Faith Alone' salvation without works, is just an imaginary ideal, and idol of the mind alone. It's not a faith that is standing and working on solid ground.

1Co 14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1Co 14:9
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.



Amen to that. No dead faith alone without works can save a man. Neither can any works without faith justify the man.

Strange, Paul believed, if you knew your righteousness before God was faith in Christ, not obeying the law/works, sin would not be your master.
Of course, only the Holy Spirit can bring anyone to accept such a message. The natural mind of man will always believe you get what you earn, you get what you deserve. But then, we all deserve hell don't we, for none of us can be good enough according to God's standards. I would be worried for anyone who thought they could be

 

[Inquisitor]

Strange, Paul believed, if you knew your righteousness before God was faith in Christ, not obeying the law/works, sin would not be your master.
Of course, only the Holy Spirit can bring anyone to accept such a message. The natural mind of man will always believe you get what you earn, you get what you deserve. But then, we all deserve hell don't we, for none of us can be good enough according to God's standards. I would be worried for anyone who thought they could be

What scares me more is folk who boast in their obedience to the law for their sanctification.

We have that gift of the perfect righteousness of the Christ and His sanctification.

We are absolutely justified and sanctified only in Jesus Christ.

To even think that something we have done amounts to anything as far as salvation is
concerned. Is one dangerous idea to entertain.

 

[James456]

What scares me more is folk who boast in their obedience to the law for their sanctification.

.

Ironically, there is no love for God or your neighbour with such an approach, so the two greatest commandments upon which the entire law hang are being broken