The OT promised land foreshadowed the NT heaven.
Looks like you reject the clear implication of Matt. 23:37.
Refuting the Calvinist’s Denial of Free Will
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The OT promised land foreshadowed the NT heaven.
Looks like you reject the clear implication of Matt. 23:37.
Sirach is an ok book, but it leans more on mans understanding than divine inspiration. Authorities omit many verses (like ones that say to praise famous people) and it ends with a boast for material wealth.
Scriptures that relate to the topic of election and MFW include the following:
Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
Notice that Jesus does not say that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell.
Luke 8:10, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'”
Both Jesus and Paul teach that the reason folks do not understand is because their hearts are hardened or callous (Matt. 13:14-15, Acts 28:26-27).
Luke 10:21, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.”
This means merely that although the Gospel/salvation is available to all, it may be hard for the educated as well as the rich to go through the eye of that needle (Matt. 19:23-24).
John 12:32 says that when Jesus is lifted up on the cross, he will draw all people to himself.
John 15:16 reports Jesus saying “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”
Matt. 1:16 records Jesus choosing to call Simon, Andrew, James and John to follow him as disciples.
John 17:-9 reports Jesus praying, “I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.”
Notice that Jesus does not say that God desires to give Jesus only a few and condemn the majority to hell.
Acts 16:14 says that God opened Lydia’s heart so she could respond to Paul’s message, and surely everyone else needs God’s grace also, and John 3:16 indicates that God gives everyone the grace to believe in Jesus and have saving faith.
Rom. 3:9-18 says that all humanity are sinners or bent on sinning instead of following God’s law through which we become aware of sin, but it does NOT say, man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, because the disobedience of Adam and Eve caused all humans to be born with an inherited sin nature and thus having a saving faith is against their very nature.
Rom. 9:11-16 says that God’s purpose in election is for salvation not to be by means of works or human effort but by God having mercy on whom He wants or chooses.
Rom. 9:22-23 indicates that God could have chosen to condemn everyone to show his power, but some are shown mercy, presumably those who did NOT refuse to love the truth.
God wants all to be saved per 1Tim. 2:3-4, but apparently some, many and even most people reject His calling (Matt. 22:14).
2Tim. 2:26 says that all unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan, bent on doing whatever he wants them to do, and Luke 4:18 says that Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free.
2Pet. 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, but wants everyone to repent, and 2Thes. 2:10 says some perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved.
Synonyms for “saved” include: elect (Matt. 24:22,24&31) = disciples (Matt. 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (John 3:3&7) = believers (John 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (Acts 9:32, Rom. 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (Acts 11:26, 26:28) = saved (Acts 16:30-31) = those in Christ (Rom. 8:1, Eph. 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (Rom. 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (Rom. 8:14-21) = the grafted in (Rom. 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1Cor. 1:2) = God’s people (1Cor. 16:1) = church/saints (2Cor. 1:1 = the faithful/holy (Eph. 1:1, Phil. 1:2) = chosen in Christ (Eph. 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (Eph. 2:19) = soldier/worker (Phi. v.2&24) = WHOSEOVER WILL MAY (REV 22:17)
Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
Notice that Jesus does not say that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell.
Luke 8:10, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'”
Both Jesus and Paul teach that the reason folks do not understand is because their hearts are hardened or callous (Matt. 13:14-15, Acts 28:26-27).
Luke 10:21, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.”
This means merely that although the Gospel/salvation is available to all, it may be hard for the educated as well as the rich to go through the eye of that needle (Matt. 19:23-24).
John 12:32 says that when Jesus is lifted up on the cross, he will draw all people to himself.
John 15:16 reports Jesus saying “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”
Matt. 1:16 records Jesus choosing to call Simon, Andrew, James and John to follow him as disciples.
John 17:-9 reports Jesus praying, “I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.”
Notice that Jesus does not say that God desires to give Jesus only a few and condemn the majority to hell.
Acts 16:14 says that God opened Lydia’s heart so she could respond to Paul’s message, and surely everyone else needs God’s grace also, and John 3:16 indicates that God gives everyone the grace to believe in Jesus and have saving faith.
Rom. 3:9-18 says that all humanity are sinners or bent on sinning instead of following God’s law through which we become aware of sin, but it does NOT say, man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, because the disobedience of Adam and Eve caused all humans to be born with an inherited sin nature and thus having a saving faith is against their very nature.
Rom. 9:11-16 says that God’s purpose in election is for salvation not to be by means of works or human effort but by God having mercy on whom He wants or chooses.
Rom. 9:22-23 indicates that God could have chosen to condemn everyone to show his power, but some are shown mercy, presumably those who did NOT refuse to love the truth.
God wants all to be saved per 1Tim. 2:3-4, but apparently some, many and even most people reject His calling (Matt. 22:14).
2Tim. 2:26 says that all unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan, bent on doing whatever he wants them to do, and Luke 4:18 says that Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free.
2Pet. 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, but wants everyone to repent, and 2Thes. 2:10 says some perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved.
Synonyms for “saved” include: elect (Matt. 24:22,24&31) = disciples (Matt. 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (John 3:3&7) = believers (John 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (Acts 9:32, Rom. 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (Acts 11:26, 26:28) = saved (Acts 16:30-31) = those in Christ (Rom. 8:1, Eph. 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (Rom. 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (Rom. 8:14-21) = the grafted in (Rom. 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1Cor. 1:2) = God’s people (1Cor. 16:1) = church/saints (2Cor. 1:1 = the faithful/holy (Eph. 1:1, Phil. 1:2) = chosen in Christ (Eph. 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (Eph. 2:19) = soldier/worker (Phi. v.2&24) = WHOSEOVER WILL MAY (REV 22:17)
I am starting to see a pattern about free will and it has to do with the ability to willingly choose something and honestly I am starting to wonder if I am or was wrong in my initial understanding of free will.
There has to be a deciding factor in all this a biblical sound factor but if you do a search on free will in scripture it is never clear on the subject at least as far as I can tell is there is an actual verse that specifically says we have such a thing as free will?
There has to be a deciding factor in all this a biblical sound factor but if you do a search on free will in scripture it is never clear on the subject at least as far as I can tell is there is an actual verse that specifically says we have such a thing as free will?
All those verses where Jesus got rejected and He let their decision stand (Judas, Pharisees, crowds after talking about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, etc.). He didn't force His will on any of them.
Isaiah 53:10—
Yet it pleased The Lord to bruise him. He has caused him to suffer. When you make his soul an offering for sin, he will see his offspring. He will prolong his days and The Lords pleasure will prosper in his hand.
Isaiah 45:7—
I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create calamity. I am The Lord, who does all these things.
Psalm 33:9—
For he spoke, and it was done. He commanded, and it stood firm.
The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing. He makes the thoughts of the peoples to be of no effect.
The counsel of The Lord stands fast forever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Blessed is the nation whose God is YHWH, the people whom he has chosen for his own inheritance.
The Lord looks from heaven. He sees all the sons of men.
From the place of his habitation he looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth,
he who fashions all of their hearts; and he considers all of their works.
There is no king saved by the multitude of an army. A mighty man is not delivered by great strength.
A horse is a vain thing for safety, neither does he deliver any by his great power.
Behold, The Lords eye is on those who fear him, on those who hope in his loving kindness,
to deliver their soul from death, to keep them alive in famine.
Our soul has waited for The Lord. He is our help and our shield.
For our heart rejoices in him, because we have trusted in his holy name.
Let your loving kindness be on us, God, since we have hoped in you.
Romans 5:18—
So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life. For as through the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.
Mark 3:28—
“Most certainly I tell you, all sins of the descendants of man will be forgiven, including their blasphemies with which they may blaspheme; but whoever may blaspheme against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation.”
(Whoever will deny that I am God, and am their salvation; that my words are truth)
Yet it pleased The Lord to bruise him. He has caused him to suffer. When you make his soul an offering for sin, he will see his offspring. He will prolong his days and The Lords pleasure will prosper in his hand.
Isaiah 45:7—
I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create calamity. I am The Lord, who does all these things.
Psalm 33:9—
For he spoke, and it was done. He commanded, and it stood firm.
The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing. He makes the thoughts of the peoples to be of no effect.
The counsel of The Lord stands fast forever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Blessed is the nation whose God is YHWH, the people whom he has chosen for his own inheritance.
The Lord looks from heaven. He sees all the sons of men.
From the place of his habitation he looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth,
he who fashions all of their hearts; and he considers all of their works.
There is no king saved by the multitude of an army. A mighty man is not delivered by great strength.
A horse is a vain thing for safety, neither does he deliver any by his great power.
Behold, The Lords eye is on those who fear him, on those who hope in his loving kindness,
to deliver their soul from death, to keep them alive in famine.
Our soul has waited for The Lord. He is our help and our shield.
For our heart rejoices in him, because we have trusted in his holy name.
Let your loving kindness be on us, God, since we have hoped in you.
Romans 5:18—
So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life. For as through the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.
Mark 3:28—
“Most certainly I tell you, all sins of the descendants of man will be forgiven, including their blasphemies with which they may blaspheme; but whoever may blaspheme against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation.”
(Whoever will deny that I am God, and am their salvation; that my words are truth)
Forget the Roman Catholic Church that has extra curricular activity going on that is not required and not approved of by God.
Love is the fulfilling of the law so who cares about their works.
And they believe sacred tradition is equal to sacred scripture.
So they will have extra books.
And come up with what they want.
You do not have to listen to what they say about free will.
And how much credit is that to say the Catholic Church said it.
You do not know by scripture.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
Looks like they have a choice.
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.
If Israel was given the Old Covenant being God's chosen people then why is not all Israel saved if they do not have free will.
So the Hebrews had a choice.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
The saints have a choice and if they do not continue in the goodness of God being disobedient they will be cut off like the disobedient Hebrews.
The angels had a choice for if not they would of not rebelled.
Adam and Eve had a choice for if not they would of not sinned.
So why would not humans after Adam and Eve have a choice.
The angels had free will.
Adam and Eve had free will.
But the rest of humanity does not have free will does not make sense.
It is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, choice, and all their offspring are born with a choice.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Many are called but few are chosen.
If God chooses who will be saved in the beginning without their choice then why is He calling people that cannot be chosen.
God does the calling and choosing on earth.
That means we have a choice.
God's kingdom is true love so we have a choice.
But we would of not accepted the truth if God did not work with us to get us to the truth.
But accepting the truth is our choice for it involves a life change that God will not cause because of free will and His kingdom is true love.
But after we accept that life change we will receive the Holy Spirit who will help us to stay firm in that life change.
Which hypocrites their flesh is rejecting the truth.
Not everybody that says Lord Lord will be saved so obviously they reject the truth.
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Predestination means God had the plan to give mankind salvation from the foundation of the world.
But this salvation is to whoever wants that salvation because God wants all people to be saved and Jesus takes away the sin of the world.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
People who refute it do not come to the truth for they will not let go of the flesh.
And they love sin more than God making an excuse.
They deny the power to overcome the flesh for they love things of the flesh.
If we are led of the Spirit we still have the capability to sin because we are in the flesh.
But if we sin we need to repent and not want the sin anymore and allow the Spirit to lead us.
God knows the heart whether we truly do not want the sin or are holding on to it.
I say everything that happens in this world works toward the Good will of God in 3 steps:
So that those who do not know Christ may be led to Christ;
So that those who are led to Christ are refined and purified;
And that those who are purified are kept safe from corruption.
So that those who do not know Christ may be led to Christ;
So that those who are led to Christ are refined and purified;
And that those who are purified are kept safe from corruption.
Taken captive to do the will of the devil is defined as being free by those who promote free will.
Meanwhile Scripture also says that the man of flesh cannot please, submit to, or obey God.
The man of flesh being him who is not regenerated, nor indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God.
But promoters of free will contradict and deny such explicitly articulated verses and also rewrite
others they do not like, such as 1 Corinthians 2:14. Lots of Pelagian heretics here. They believe
flesh can please God by choosing to believe with their incurably wicked heart what is foolishness
to him as a lover of darkness and slave to sin opposed to the spiritual things of God.
Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18
1 Corinthians 2:14, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context and NT teaching. Here is relevant immediate context for that verse:
1Cor. 1:21b, “God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” God’s method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God desires all to believe and be saved.
1Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified… to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” Again, “We preach to all natural men”, and “to those natural men God has called”.
This prompts the question: Is “desire” in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God’s “calling” in 1Cor.1:24–and we might add with God’s “drawing” in John 12:32 and with God’s “invitation” in Matt. 22:14 and with God’s kind leading in Rom. 2:4? The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God’s calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.
1Cor. 1:26, “Brothers, think of what you were when you were called… Not many were influential.” They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God’s calling.
1Cor. 1:27-28, “God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise… the lowly… and the despised”. God’s saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that “no one may boast before him” (1Cor. 1:29).
1Cor. 2:1-2, “When I came to you, brothers… I proclaimed to you… Jesus Christ and him crucified.” Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul’s preaching of the Gospel. When they believe, they receive God’s HS per Rom. 5:5.
1Cor. 2:10, “God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.” God’s HS enables natural men to seek, find (Matt. 7:7-9), believe the Gospel and receive the HS/be saved (or not).
Thus, 1Cor. 2:14 means, “The man without the Spirit [who resists/refuses to cooperate with God’s grace/Gospel and thus does not receive the HS] does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God [the “all truth” of John 16:13 and “everything” of Matt. 28:20], for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Quoting John 10:25-26 alone is a dangerous half-truth without John 3:16.
Quoting Rom. 3:9-18 alone is a dangerous half-truth without Rom. 3:20-26.
Just because Rome teaches something does not make it right, OR wrong. Rome teaches Jesus is the Son of God, should we abandon this belief simply because Rome holds it? Everyone would say of course not.
Free will is not a roman catholic invention by any means. The early church prior to Augustine all believed in free will, few quotes:
- 110-165AD Justin Martyr "We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (Justin First Apology chap. 43)
- 185-255 AD Origen "He makes Himself known to those who, after doing all that their powers will allow, confess that they need help from Him." (Origen Against Celsus bk. 7, chap. 42)
- 190 AD Clement of Alexandria "A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace." (Clement Salvation of the Rich Man chap. 21)
I would argue everytime God commands men to repent is proof of free will, if we are incapable of doing so, God is simply angry at Himself for not giving us the gift of repentance, as would be the case in calvinism. I know they have the two wills of God to explain this.
I would say this verse also proves man has a will:
Ezekiel 22:30
And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
God was seeking for a man and found none.If man has no free will, God could have simply regenerated someone and He would of had a man.
Well yes this verse could imply that there is a will but it is still a pretty vague one. But your idea on repentance has some merit to it as repentance is an actual decision
Lets try again then.
2 Corinthians 5:19-20
New International Version
"that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God."
So everything has been reconciled YET he is imploring you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled, by receiving the reconciliation. Why would he say that if calvinism is true? God's elect will be given the gift of faith anyways, no need to implore anyone.
That's a terrible misrepresentation of reformed doctrine, but unfortunately I see it all the time.
Nope. I understand the doctrine and know how they would respond to what I said. I know, God ordains both the ends and the means. And preaching the Gospel is the means through which God will save. Gospel is preached to all, only the elect respond with saving faith.
Just because someone doesn't AGREE with the reformed doctrine does NOT mean they dont understand it or are misrepresenting it. I know their counter arguments and the way they phrase these things, I am just not convinced of them.
The point is you cannot tell anyone Jesus died for them or they have been reconciled to God if you were consistent with the "L" of TULIP; Limited atonement. Because you dont know for sure if Jesus has died for that person or not.
Because I believe Jesus died for everyone, and reconciled everyone I can tell that to someone, be genuine about it. And thats where the difference comes in, the reformed believe Jesus bought salvation, guaranteed, for a certain group, which will be saved. Others believe Jesus died for everyone but it is only applied through faith, so salvation is possible for all, but not guaranteed.
That is the favorite thing for reformed folks to do, cry foul, misrepresentation. This same thing is done whenever someone asks if rape is predestined, James White starts talking about the other guy misrepresenting or using emotional tactics or something. But its just simply not true. They are pushing the issue cause they know its a weak point and James White if he is consistent he has to say: YES, it was predestined, but it serves a purpose, and he always asks "is there evil without purpose? Is that any better?"
So no it is NOT a misrepresentation of reformed doctrine, I was simply posting a verse and saying in MY OPINION it does not jive well with the TULIP, and there are many many verses which dont
So your understanding is wrong, but you're going to stick with it. Got it.
Would you agree that one is always either walking according to the flesh or according to the Spirit?
I don't really see how this verse has to do with free will though, yes he is imploring them but in this situation the ones recieving could already have been drawn to God otherwise they would not listen. I also would like to say that as long as God is the instigator there is plenty of room for free will but if one just suddenly chose to seek God all on their own well that isn't how it works God always is the one to draw them to him first.
After which they are free to choose to accept him or not so I don't know much about calvinism but as far as I can tell this is how it works the drawing or calling, the quickening or regenrated and the choosing or not choosing in that order
But the key is that God is the one who draws us to him first John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.