Does the Parable of the Wedding Banquet confirm the abrogation of the Israelites and invitation to the Gentiles?

[homwardbound]

Rev14:1-14.

Is not, and can not be the church.

Yet they are gathered at the appearing.
( complete with Jewish firstfruits [144000] gathered before the main gathering of Jews)
7 years of Jacob's trouble
If it is transposed onto "churches trouble" then yes you could be "right".

Your response gave me scripture
Hebrews 8:1-4 and I do know the word Church is not correct in translating from the Original Greek
The word that was/is changed is "The Ecclesia". knowing this now, Church in Greek means Building. Where as the Ecclesia are "The called out ones"
God said the temple would be destroyed and not one brick left on top of another.
Which happened in 70AD
What does man do? rebuilds and calls it new, putting the selfie charge over parishioners.
I see to have a personal relationship with Father with the risen Jesus. Anyone else? Oh and I do not kick against the pricks. Anyone care to go to a building, please go and learn also. Thanks
! John 2:27. God is in charge still, thank you religious people do tell truth, thank you
I hope you each do as you preach the truth

John 8:32
and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Matthew 6:2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Mark 1:22
And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and notas do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Galatians 5:21
envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The process change is in seeing you personally are not perfect and need to be as perfect, yet no other flesh but Son's flesh could and did that once for all Col 1:21-22
Anyone excluded in the word All?
God love us all each personally, lets let that soak in. Then man interferes and say yes, But! As I now see and do not care for Billy-Goats, anyone else always butting in
God said it through Son, I love you all. Is proven in being seen as risen by the Disciples and many others as well, John 19:30, now risen for each person personally to choose to trust God Father, the same as Jesus did in his perfect walk here on earth first.
Our turn, yet not in flesh and blood, more importantly in God's Spirit and Truth given us to abide in, Father and Son as the lead only. John 4:23-24 to me at least and how freeing it is not do any more work to be in. I now work because I am accept, forgiven and sealed by God to see it and remain humble in learning new daily thank you Father
Eph 1:6 Accepted
Eph 1:7 Forgiven, reconciled
Eph 1:13 Sealed by God to teach me new over the first birth I was born in first

Thank you Father and Son thank you a million times over and over and over and over again and again and again

 

[Needevidence]

Yes
The Gentile church is the "second born"
As in Isaac, Jacob, Solomon, etc.

That is the illustration of the the second born...(us)...PRECEDING the Jewish covenant people.

Rev14:14 is the gathering of the "firstborn" covenant Jews, completely separate harvest, and which comes way after the second born..(the Gentile church raptured to heaven)

Without that component the parable makes little sense, because there is no attention given to location or if the ones invited "that refused", ever later attend .

The wedding in heaven has those of rev14:1-14 IN HEAVEN, and could be as guests or a actual part of the wedding.

That component is Ruth Boaz And Naomi.

With all components on the table understanding begins to be revealed.

That is why replacement theology is way way off.

I’m sorry, but you’ve lost me - you also seem to be trying to make the parable fit other passages rather than allowing the parable to speak for itself.

I’m also unsure as to the point you are trying to make or what relevant - 'That component is Ruth Boaz And Naomi.'

 

[Psalm1]

I’m sorry, but you’ve lost me - you also seem to be trying to make the parable fit other passages rather than allowing the parable to speak for itself.

I’m also unsure as to the point you are trying to make or what relevant - 'That component is Ruth Boaz And Naomi.'

Under replacement theology, what about Naomi? She did not change her religion/ ethnicity, yet there she is with Jesus and the Gentile church.

I am not off topic with the wedding parable tying into other passages.
Especially since you are using that parable to tie into replacement theology.

 

[Psalm1]

Your response gave me scripture
Hebrews 8:1-4 and I do know the word Church is not correct in translating from the Original Greek
The word that was/is changed is "The Ecclesia". knowing this now, Church in Greek means Building. Where as the Ecclesia are "The called out ones"
God said the temple would be destroyed and not one brick left on top of another.
Which happened in 70AD
What does man do? rebuilds and calls it new, putting the selfie charge over parishioners.
I see to have a personal relationship with Father with the risen Jesus. Anyone else? Oh and I do not kick against the pricks. Anyone care to go to a building, please go and learn also. Thanks
! John 2:27. God is in charge still, thank you religious people do tell truth, thank you
I hope you each do as you preach the truth

John 8:32
and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Matthew 6:2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Mark 1:22
And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and notas do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Galatians 5:21
envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The process change is in seeing you personally are not perfect and need to be as perfect, yet no other flesh but Son's flesh could and did that once for all Col 1:21-22
Anyone excluded in the word All?
God love us all each personally, lets let that soak in. Then man interferes and say yes, But! As I now see and do not care for Billy-Goats, anyone else always butting in
God said it through Son, I love you all. Is proven in being seen as risen by the Disciples and many others as well, John 19:30, now risen for each person personally to choose to trust God Father, the same as Jesus did in his perfect walk here on earth first.
Our turn, yet not in flesh and blood, more importantly in God's Spirit and Truth given us to abide in, Father and Son as the lead only. John 4:23-24 to me at least and how freeing it is not do any more work to be in. I now work because I am accept, forgiven and sealed by God to see it and remain humble in learning new daily thank you Father
Eph 1:6 Accepted
Eph 1:7 Forgiven, reconciled
Eph 1:13 Sealed by God to teach me new over the first birth I was born in first

Thank you Father and Son thank you a million times over and over and over and over again and again and again

Good verses.
Yes more is better.
Leaving out verses is not the high ground.
Thanks

 

[Psalm1]

I can not see how "Gentile church" can be a Biblical concept.
If Jesus is the King, it does not originate from the Gentiles.
Consider this description of the church:

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Would it not be bazaar to call this Israel of God "Gentile"?
Does that imply that Jews (including Jesus) are only included as guests?



Is that the covenant with Abraham that you have in mind?

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



I have never been introduced to a teaching like that about Ruth Boaz and Naomi, and lack this understanding.
Can you please explain it to us?

About midway in the story of Ruth, we see Naomi, a Jewish woman, return, to her homeland with Ruth tagging along behind her
Ruth is a Gentile and declares she will serve the same God as Naomi. ( judeo Christian religion)
Once they are back in their homeland Boaaz ( Jesus) appears in the story
As a kinsman redeemer.
That is where we get that concept of the kinsman redeemer.
Boaz has his eye on Ruth
And in the contract by Boaz Ruth must be married and go along in the contract

So the contract was refused by one of the kinsmen
And that is when Boaz stepped in and redeemed the land and Marries Ruth.
Ruth is representative of the Gentile church.

In the story, at the end, the offspring is handed to Naomi indicating all 3 are in the same dwelling.
I doubt the story has any relevance to those in this thread, though, because those components are definitely a problem for the replacement theology.

BTW, without the book of Ruth, rev 5 is not fully understood.
( the kinsman Redeemer)

( authority to do what Jesus did and Boaz did)

 

[Beekeeper]

About midway in the story of Ruth, we see Naomi, a Jewish woman, return, to her homeland with Ruth tagging along behind her
Ruth is a Gentile and declares she will serve the same God as Naomi. ( judeo Christian religion)
Once they are back in their homeland Boaaz ( Jesus) appears in the story
As a kinsman redeemer.
That is where we get that concept of the kinsman redeemer.
Boaz has his eye on Ruth
And in the contract by Boaz Ruth must be married and go along in the contract

So the contract was refused by one of the kinsmen
And that is when Boaz stepped in and redeemed the land and Marries Ruth.
Ruth is representative of the Gentile church.

In the story, at the end, the offspring is handed to Naomi indicating all 3 are in the same dwelling.
I doubt the story has any relevance to those in this thread, though, because those components are definitely a problem for the replacement theology.

BTW, without the book of Ruth, rev 5 is not fully understood.
( the kinsman Redeemer)

( authority to do what Jesus did and Boaz did)

Thank you for that explanation.
It makes sense to me to think of Boaz as a type of Christ, and I find this illustration interesting when viewed from that angle.
Ruth as a Gentile desiring to be reconciled with God is in need of a redeemer, and while her true redeemer will be Jesus in time to come, It is Boaz who has authority to redeem her and her future children to an inheritance of the land in Bethlehem.
Boaz was also the son of Rahab the Canaanite. (Mathew 1:5).

I have found nothing in the chapter to suggest that she did not become a full citizen of Israel, or had second class status on account of her birth.
God blessed Ruth greatly, and the people of Israel fully accepted her citizenship.

Ruth 4:11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The Lord make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:
12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the Lord shall give thee of this young woman.

I v. 12 I notice the reference to Pharez son of Judah and Tamar the Gentile (probably Canaanite, like Judah's other wife Shua).
Pharez is of the same patriarchal line as Boaz, and later king David.
As it has turned out, the words of the people in the gate (vs.11 and 12) have turned out to be prophetic.

 

[Beekeeper]

Under replacement theology, what about Naomi? She did not change her religion/ ethnicity, yet there she is with Jesus and the Gentile church.

I am not off topic with the wedding parable tying into other passages.
Especially since you are using that parable to tie into replacement theology.

I can not see that Naomi is in a different category from all other faithful old Testament saints.
Her redemption is in Jesus who is still to come, but it is the same for them all.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[homwardbound]

Good verses.
Yes more is better.
Leaving out verses is not the high ground.
Thanks

To me, there is no high ground. Since Jesus through his willing death leveled the playing field
We are all equaled out, level. No one better than anyone else in Father's sight. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seeing Romans 2:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Matthew 18:24-35 I see I, by God am forgiven, Eph 1:7 2 Cor 5:16-20
1 John 2:1-27. Now ask for Father's view Romans 12:2 to see from ?Dad's view in risen Son for you to be not anyone better than anyone else ever. Even if you are doing rightly better than others
All that is left, is to turn to Father in risen Son for you to be taught new over time here on earth, trusting Father he has got you in with /????him and Son for you, by Son's done work for us all at the cross. The resurrection is proof and is were the new life offered for all is at.
Scripture asserts that God views all people as equal, emphasizing that all are created in His image, share equal worth regardless of social status, race, or gender, and are equally in need of salvation. Key verses highlighting this, particularly regarding unity in Christ, include
Galatians 3:28, Acts 10:34-35, and Romans 3:22-24.

 

[Psalm1]

To me, there is no high ground. Since Jesus through his willing death leveled the playing field
We are all equaled out, level. No one better than anyone else in Father's sight. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seeing Romans 2:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Matthew 18:24-35 I see I, by God am forgiven, Eph 1:7 2 Cor 5:16-20
1 John 2:1-27. Now ask for Father's view Romans 12:2 to see from ?Dad's view in risen Son for you to be not anyone better than anyone else ever. Even if you are doing rightly better than others
All that is left, is to turn to Father in risen Son for you to be taught new over time here on earth, trusting Father he has got you in with /????him and Son for you, by Son's done work for us all at the cross. The resurrection is proof and is were the new life offered for all is at.
Scripture asserts that God views all people as equal, emphasizing that all are created in His image, share equal worth regardless of social status, race, or gender, and are equally in need of salvation. Key verses highlighting this, particularly regarding unity in Christ, include
Galatians 3:28, Acts 10:34-35, and Romans 3:22-24.

Ok, several things to factor in that you left out.
One is that Paul classified Christians in 3 basic classification,
*mature
* babies
*and carnal.
Another thing that you're leaving out is that when we see the people of the world, the wicked ones not born again, God sees all them equal, but to those of us that belong to him, we are of his family and they are not.
so no. He does not see everyone as the same.
But even if you're trying to say that God's sees the saved and the unsaved as equal, I would have to say that the people that are saved, if they enter into Sin, they lose favor and fellowship with God.

They do not lose their salvation.
They lose his presence and anointing.

 

[Psalm1]

I can not see that Naomi is in a different category from all other faithful old Testament saints.
Her redemption is in Jesus who is still to come, but it is the same for them all.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Under replacement theology, yes, Naomi does not fit.

Naomi is the remnant Jew returning.
Ruth is given attention and gathered first.
Naomi ( the remnant Jew) is gathered by Boaz ( saved through Jesus).
The Jew and Gentile church gathered separately by Jesus.
....to heaven...the wedding.

 

[Psalm1]

Thank you for that explanation.
It makes sense to me to think of Boaz as a type of Christ, and I find this illustration interesting when viewed from that angle.
Ruth as a Gentile desiring to be reconciled with God is in need of a redeemer, and while her true redeemer will be Jesus in time to come, It is Boaz who has authority to redeem her and her future children to an inheritance of the land in Bethlehem.
Boaz was also the son of Rahab the Canaanite. (Mathew 1:5).

I have found nothing in the chapter to suggest that she did not become a full citizen of Israel, or had second class status on account of her birth.
God blessed Ruth greatly, and the people of Israel fully accepted her citizenship.

Ruth 4:11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The Lord make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:
12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the Lord shall give thee of this young woman.

I v. 12 I notice the reference to Pharez son of Judah and Tamar the Gentile (probably Canaanite, like Judah's other wife Shua).
Pharez is of the same patriarchal line as Boaz, and later king David.
As it has turned out, the words of the people in the gate (vs.11 and 12) have turned out to be prophetic.

The reason the first next of Kin refused to be Redeemer, is because Ruth would "mar" his bloodline.
Seems Boaz planed it that way, as his eye was on Ruth, And he was possibly counting on the first kinsman rejection.
(It is in the story)

 

[Psalm1]

There is much to unpack in Ruth's typology.
1) the child given to Naomi to nurse.
2) who the "first of kin" represents in the story that refused to redeem Naomi's house/land.

 

[Psalm1]

Found this on google:
""Ruth's child, Obed, represents the restoration of Naomi’s lineage, the continuation of the family line of Boaz, and the crucial bridge in the Messianic genealogy leading to King David and Jesus Christ. As the son of Ruth and Boaz, he signifies God's sovereign redemption, turning bitterness into joy and securing a future for the family.""

I actually remembered researching this 40 years ago but totally forgot that dynamic

 

[Psalm1]

From google;

""The first, unnamed kinsman redeemer in the Book of Ruth represents the limitations of the Old Testament Law—specifically, one who is able but unwilling to fulfill the full requirement of redemption due to personal cost. He signifies a legalistic approach that prioritizes self-preservation over sacrificial love, contrasting with Boaz’s role as the willing, Christ-like redeemer who secures both land and family line.""

Sounds plausible.
More research may be needed.

The deeper Ruth is unpacked, the more we see replacement theology is way off.

 

[Psalm1]

Found this on google:
""Ruth's child, Obed, represents the restoration of Naomi’s lineage, the continuation of the family line of Boaz, and the crucial bridge in the Messianic genealogy leading to King David and Jesus Christ. As the son of Ruth and Boaz, he signifies God's sovereign redemption, turning bitterness into joy and securing a future for the family.""

I actually remembered researching this 40 years ago but totally forgot that dynamic

This dynamic is so fascinating.
The Jew that is "wiped out" restored in her lineage.

( another "burr under the saddle" for RT)

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Simple Sunday school questions are often of value, so I will have a go at answering:

1. "Them that were bidden" were initially invited to the feast, and I think it is safe to say that means the the children of Israel.

2. The "remnant" (v.6 kjv) killed the prophets. "Lord, they have killed thy prophets" Romans 11:3. The remnant I assume is either the children of Israel, or a sub-group within that fold.

3. The king " destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city" in v.7.
Jerusalem was destroyed after the crucifixion of Jesus and with it the nation of Israel.

4. "As many as they found, both bad and good" (v.10) were gathered and invited.
Not all of them were judged worthy Vs.11-14.

A. Jesus did not come to restore the Mosaic covenant or to simply restate the commands that went with it. The Messiah came proclaiming the reality of HIS MESSIANIC KINGDOM.
B. The laws governing the citizens of His kingdom are not limited to the ten commandments. They were all-encompassing and went to the depth of our motives and thoughts.
C. Jesus gospel was no longer about just the Jewish people, it was about what the Lamb would do for all people under the New Covenant. The message to REPENT and BELIEVE in Jesus was sent to all mankind.
D. If we spend all our time parsing exactly which of Jesus teachings applied to Jews versus Gentiles we will miss the main point which is about how God would go about establishing the heavenly kingdom in all people.
E. Though the moral implications of the Mosaic Law remain true and universal, merely KNOWING the requirements and committing oneself to follow them was not enough. We must also have an internal "guidance system" which God provided in the Person of the Holy Spirit who reveals and bears witness to the truth.
E. Your "Sunday School understanding" of God's plan as you have presented here is crabbed and limited leaving out much that was accomplished by the Messiah.

 

[homwardbound]

Ok, several things to factor in that you left out.
One is that Paul classified Christians in 3 basic classification,
*mature
* babies
*and carnal.
Another thing that you're leaving out is that when we see the people of the world, the wicked ones not born again, God sees all them equal, but to those of us that belong to him, we are of his family and they are not.
so no. He does not see everyone as the same.
But even if you're trying to say that God's sees the saved and the unsaved as equal, I would have to say that the people that are saved, if they enter into Sin, they lose favor and fellowship with God.

They do not lose their salvation.
They lose his presence and anointing.

Thank you God remains fair to all, yet is not a pharisee, pharisees are not Fair you see. Religious people are many times still selfishly, sitting in Mose's seat. Leave them alone, Father will deal with each person accordingly, when it is time.
Vengeance belongs to Father and Son as Won for us the people to be new, born new in Father's Spirit and truth of love and mercy for all presently in this present age of grace, completed by Son. First in his willing death, reconciled everyone to himself, includes Father being in agreement, the two as One for us the people, to save us in the risen Son for us all.. Now risen by Daddy, PaPa, Father where new life is a gift from Father. Father is still, now reaching out to all in the same love and mercy given to all through Son as many people are still fighting not being willing to be dead to sin presently daily (Romans 6:12) In risen Son, people unfortunately remain mad over bad experiences from others that did them wrong. What does Father say about anyone accusing, abusing or excusing anyone, Romans 2:1-4, Romans 14:1-4, Matthew 18:24-35 if I, you and any other person will not forgive, since are now forgiven by God through Son's done work at that cross. Is it then, righteous for God to call these people back to the Judgement seat, those that do not forgive since by God they are forgiven before were ever born here on earth today? I, assuredly do not want to ever be called back to God, does anyone else? So forigive and love as are forgiven and loved by God first then? Today in the risen Son given us, I respond in thankfulness and forgive and love as Called John 13:34
Thank you Father for what you have done. Tell me is, this what first born flesh does, Can it? Not! Rom 8:3
We love and foirgive all, because God did this for us first 1 John 4:17-19

 

[Beekeeper]

E. Your "Sunday School understanding" of God's plan as you have presented here is crabbed and limited leaving out much that was accomplished by the Messiah.

You are right, there is very much I have left out.

 

[Beekeeper]

Under replacement theology, yes, Naomi does not fit.

Naomi is the remnant Jew returning.
Ruth is given attention and gathered first.
Naomi ( the remnant Jew) is gathered by Boaz ( saved through Jesus).
The Jew and Gentile church gathered separately by Jesus.
....to heaven...the wedding.

I may not be familiar with the belief that you call "replacement theology".
I see mostly agreement with your explanations of Ruth, though we may differ in eschatology and other points.
Perhaps you are at odds with my view that the house of Israel continues in Jesus?
There is much room for remnant returning Jews in the Israel of God of Galatians 6:16,
in fact I think God welcomes them with open heart.

If there is a theology in your country that would exclude Naomi, maybe you or someone who understand it can tell us how it works?

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Ok, several things to factor in that you left out.
I would have to say that the people that are saved, if they enter into Sin, they lose favor and fellowship with God.
They do not lose their salvation.
They lose his presence and anointing.

Can someone who has abandoned the faith and fallen back into a lifestyle of sin, who no longer has fellowship with God, who have have lost the Presence of the Holy Spirit and their anointing still be defined as a Christian? How could they when the seal of the Spirit is the identifying mark that authenticates our that we belong to Him? Where did you get such an idea? The Bible says:
9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.… (Romans 8:9)