Works of the Law

[Mem]

I am going to ask this of you like I've asked every other person that believes like you do, if faith alone (sola fide) is true and sufficient for salvation, then why would faith need completion by works? This requires you to understand the words alone and sufficient. God didnt know before Abraham offered up his son that Abraham feared him? Really? If faith alone is sufficient why the action?

The right question produces the right answer. Do works alone generate faith? No.
On the other hand, does faith alone generate works? Yes.

 

[Nedsk]

The right question produces the right answer. Do works alone generate faith? No.
On the other hand, does faith alone generate works? Yes.

I never claimed works generate faith so that question is meaningless. So your contention is faith creates works. Once you have faith you have no choice but to do the works. That's your position?

 

[vassal]

The temple was still standing when James issued his judgment in Acts 15, so that is not the reason the law wasn't imposed upon gentile believers.

I agree with what you say but Gentiles were NOT allowed in the temple! were not welcomed in synagogues. the reason is simply this ; Jesus sacrifice and death invalidated most of the law of Moses that have to do with sin atonement, Levetical proesthood and the line ceremonies, it is a complex issue that we could discuss at length, imagine gentiles learning's the 600 plus laws that were no longer necessary and was tailored for a particular people in the desert at that time, These Laws served them well, God's chosen people, who came out of 400 years of slavery and had very little instructions, worshipted idols and for the most part had forgotten through time their God. They really needed these instructions, for a time at least. I am not an expert on all these laws and their current applications if any, but I am certain about the ten Commandment, they are still valid and God expects His people, Jews or gentiles, all Who love Him and want to do His will and follow them, Jesus sout Lord, said so many time to keep the commandments, explained their true meaning, how could anyone object, I know you do not but many here do object to his words.

Blessings.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Gentiles [/B]were NOT allowed in the temple! were not welcomed in synagogues

Do some research on proselytes of the gate. That's where the first gentile Christians worshiped.

 

[Dino246]

I agree with what you say but Gentiles were NOT allowed in the temple! were not welcomed in synagogues. the reason is simply this ; Jesus sacrifice and death invalidated most of the law of Moses that have to do with sin atonement, Levetical proesthood and the line ceremonies, it is a complex issue that we could discuss at length, imagine gentiles learning's the 600 plus laws that were no longer necessary and was tailored for a particular people in the desert at that time, These Laws served them well, God's chosen people, who came out of 400 years of slavery and had very little instructions, worshipted idols and for the most part had forgotten through time their God. They really needed these instructions, for a time at least. I am not an expert on all these laws and their current applications if any, but I am certain about the ten Commandment, they are still valid and God expects His people, Jews or gentiles, all Who love Him and want to do His will and follow them, Jesus sout Lord, said so many time to keep the commandments, explained their true meaning, how could anyone object, I know you do not but many here do object to his words.

Blessings.

Please provide the Scripture passage(s) that state which components of the Sinai covenant and law apply to Gentile Christians and which don’t.

 

[vassal]

Please provide the Scripture passage(s) that state which components of the Sinai covenant and law apply to Gentile Christians and which don’t.

Only the Ten Commandments stand as the everlasting covenant God spoke with His own voice and wrote with His own finger, and these apply to all people. The only other required items for Gentile believers are the few parts from the law of Moses that the apostles listed in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. Outside of these, the rest of the Sinai laws were for Israel’s national life and are not placed on Gentile followers of Christ.

Acts 15 verse 20 says they must stay away from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. Acts 15 verse 29 repeats the same list, telling them to avoid things offered to idols, blood, things strangled, and sexual immorality. Acts 21 verse 25 shows the same decision again. These four rules were chosen because they were the main sins connected with pagan worship in the Gentile world. Idol feasts almost always included meat sacrificed to idols, drinking blood, eating animals that were strangled, and acts of sexual sin. By following them, Gentile believers could leave idolatry behind and live in purity. before God.

These rules were not meant to replace the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments stand as God’s everlasting covenant spoken by His own voice and written by His own finger. They were given for all His people, not for Israel alone. The rest of the Sinai laws were for Israel’s national life, but the apostles did not place those on Gentile believers. They only required the four rules listed in Acts and the Ten Commandments that belong to God’s eternal covenant.

 

[vassal]

Do some research on proselytes of the gate. That's where the first gentile Christians worshiped.

Proselytes of the gate were Gentiles who feared the God of Israel, left idol worship, and joined themselves to Israel without becoming full Jews. They did not take circumcision, so they were not counted as full converts, but they still worshiped the God of Israel and followed the basic moral laws God gave to all nations. Because they feared God and kept away from idols, they were allowed to come into the synagogues.

This group is important because many of the first Gentile Christians came from them. They were already listening to the Scriptures every Sabbath, already learning about the God of Israel, and already turning away from pagan life. This is why we read in Acts about Gentiles who were “God-fearing” or “devout”. These are proselytes of the gate.

The apostles understood this background. These people already kept the Ten Commandments as moral law, and they already avoided the sins connected with idols. This is why the Jerusalem Council gave the same four rules that proselytes of the gate had always kept: stay away from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. These were the basic standards that Gentiles needed when they turned from idols to worship the true God. Because the first Gentile believers were already familiar with these rules, the apostles simply continued the same pattern.

In short, proselytes of the gate were Gentiles who worshiped in the synagogues without becoming full Jews, and many of the first Gentile Christians came from this group. They already feared God and followed His basic laws, which is why the apostles gave them the same simple requirements in Acts.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Proselytes of the gate were Gentiles who feared the God of Israel, left idol worship, and joined themselves to Israel without becoming full Jews. They did not take circumcision, so they were not counted as full converts, but they still worshiped the God of Israel and followed the basic moral laws God gave to all nations. Because they feared God and kept away from idols, they were allowed to come into the synagogues.

This group is important because many of the first Gentile Christians came from them. They were already listening to the Scriptures every Sabbath, already learning about the God of Israel, and already turning away from pagan life. This is why we read in Acts about Gentiles who were “God-fearing” or “devout”. These are proselytes of the gate.

The apostles understood this background. These people already kept the Ten Commandments as moral law, and they already avoided the sins connected with idols. This is why the Jerusalem Council gave the same four rules that proselytes of the gate had always kept: stay away from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. These were the basic standards that Gentiles needed when they turned from idols to worship the true God. Because the first Gentile believers were already familiar with these rules, the apostles simply continued the same pattern.

In short, proselytes of the gate were Gentiles who worshiped in the synagogues without becoming full Jews, and many of the first Gentile Christians came from this group. They already feared God and followed His basic laws, which is why the apostles gave them the same simple requirements in Acts.

This is an excellent synopsis

 

[Mem]

I never claimed works generate faith so that question is meaningless. So your contention is faith creates works. Once you have faith you have no choice but to do the works. That's your position?

For example, you loved God because He first loved you. That is, you loved God when you first believed that He loved you.

 

[DeepSeeker]

Many people hear the phrase “works of the law” and immediately think that all law is abolished, that the law is only Jewish, or that keeping God’s commandments means becoming a Judaizer. From there, they conclude that the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses were one single thing and were all removed. This first assumption is where the confusion begins, and if it is not corrected, everything that follows will be misunderstood
.
In Scripture, the word “law” does not always mean the same thing. God gave the Ten Commandments also called moral commandments that show His will and His character, such as loving God, loving others, honoring parents, not murdering, not stealing, not lying... These commandments define sin and righteousness. God also gave Israel covenant signs and ritual laws, such as circumcision, sacrifices, food laws, and temple rules. These marked Israel as a nation and pointed forward to deeper spiritual truths. Mixing these together and treating them as one single system leads people to think that obedience itself is the problem. Jesus never taught that.

Jesus did not speak against God’s commandments. He spoke against trusting in outward religious acts while the heart remains unchanged. When a man asked Jesus how to gain eternal life, Jesus answered plainly, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17, NKJV). Jesus then quoted commandments from the Ten Commandments. He did not say they were abolished. He treated them as the standard of life.

The phrase “works of the law” describes attempts to be counted righteous through outward acts, identity markers, and rule-keeping without repentance, mercy, or obedience of the heart. This is exactly what the Pharisees practiced, and Jesus rebuked them severely for it. They were experts in religious rules, but strangers to mercy and truth.

Jesus exposed their false works many times. He said, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith” (Matthew 23:23, NKJV). They were careful with small religious details but ignored love, compassion, and faithfulness. This is a clear picture of “works of the law.”
J
esus also rebuked them for using the law to avoid helping others. He said they found ways to excuse themselves from caring for their parents while claiming to honor God with religious vows. He told them, “Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition” (Matthew 15:6, NKJV). Their works looked holy, but they canceled God’s will.
They fasted, prayed, and gave alms to be seen by others. Jesus warned against this kind of religion. He said, “Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them” (Matthew 6:1, NKJV). He taught that public religion without humility has no reward from God. These were works done for pride, not for love.
They also trusted in their religious status. Jesus spoke of a Pharisee who prayed by listing his religious acts and thanking God that he was better than others. Jesus showed that this man was not justified, while the humble sinner who cried for mercy was accepted by God (Luke 18:9–14, NKJV). Again, this shows the problem was not obedience, but self-righteous works.

Jesus made it clear that true obedience comes from the heart. In the Sermon on the Mount, He showed that anger breaks the command against murder, lust breaks the command against adultery, and careless words break the command against truth. He did not lower the law. He revealed its true meaning. He also said plainly, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17, NKJV). He then warned against setting aside God’s commandments or teaching others to do so.

Jesus also taught what true works look like when the heart has been changed. These are not works done to earn life. They are works that flow naturally from love, mercy, and obedience. Jesus described them clearly when He spoke about the final judgment. He said, “For I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me” (Matthew 25:35–36, NKJV). These people were not trying to prove themselves. They were simply living out love, and Jesus said that what they did to the least, they did to Him.

Jesus also said, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46, NKJV). He compared the obedient person to a wise man who built his house on rock. Hearing without doing was not enough. True faith listens and acts.
He taught generosity, care for the poor, and quiet mercy. He said, “Give to him who asks you” (Matthew 5:42, NKJV), and “Sell what you have and give alms” (Luke 12:33, NKJV). He also taught that these acts should be done in secret, from a sincere heart, not for praise.

In simple words, false works try to earn righteousness. True works reveal righteousness. “Works of the law” are actions done to claim status, identity, or salvation without a changed heart. Jesus rejected that path completely. He called people to repent, to believe, and to follow Him.

When the heart is changed, obedience follows. Feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, visiting prisoners, forgiving others, and living truthfully are not replacements for faith. They are the fruit of faith.

Jesus summed it up clearly when He said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15, NKJV). Love comes first, but love is proven by obedience. Jesus did not remove God’s commandments. He restored their true meaning and showed that real faith is alive, active, and full of mercy.

 

[DeepSeeker]

Gods' Word is Truth; so simply learn from It!

 

[vassal]

Gods' Word is Truth; so simply learn from It!

thank you!

 

[Nedsk]

For example, you loved God because He first loved you. That is, you loved God when you first believed that He loved you.

That doesn't really answer my question does it? Does faith cause works?

 

[Mem]

That doesn't really answer my question does it? Does faith cause works?

Faith inspires works but the 'cause' of works may vary. Who can tell if you pray in order that men see you praying.

 

[Nedsk]

Faith inspires works but the 'cause' of works may vary. Who can tell if you pray in order that men see you praying.

Faith may inspire works but people have to choose to do the works. Jesus is clear on that point Matt 7:21

If works aren't a choice then how can we judged for doing them or not doing them? Matt 25:31-46

 

[Mem]

Faith may inspire works but people have to choose to do the works. Jesus is clear on that point Matt 7:21

If works aren't a choice then how can we judged for doing them or not doing them? Matt 25:31-46

The Lord loves a cheerful giver so, I'd say a reluctant giver does do it even if he does by any other evidence.

 

[Nedsk]

The Lord loves a cheerful giver so, I'd say a reluctant giver does do it even if he does by any other evidence.

You don't really address things do you? Cheerful or not Matt 25: 31-46 clearly teaches if you don't do the works you don't achieve the kingdom of God.

 

[Mem]

You don't really address things do you? Cheerful or not Matt 25: 31-46 clearly teaches if you don't do the works you don't achieve the kingdom of God.

Do you consider not worrying to be a work? It is one of Jesus' express commandments, after all.

 

[Nedsk]

Do you consider not worrying to be a work? It is one of Jesus' express commandments, after all.

It's irrelevant as scripture is clear just expressing faith with your mouth is useless. It's also clear that is you don't do the work of the Lord then you can't gain the kingdom not God. You can talk cute all you like but it's just talk. We have to choose to act. To presume you're saved simply because you "believe" is non scriptural.

 

[Mem]

It's irrelevant as scripture is clear just expressing faith with your mouth is useless. It's also clear that is you don't do the work of the Lord then you can't gain the kingdom not God. You can talk cute all you like but it's just talk. We have to choose to act. To presume you're saved simply because you "believe" is non scriptural.

Ok. What will be your next act?