Oh then maybe you could tell us your idea about what perseverance of the saints means and why being preserved in faith is so horrible
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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You do not believe the Father drew you to the Lord Jesus Christ through a faithful believer who preach the gospel to you?
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
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Perseverance of the saints, sometimes called preservation of the saints, is a Calvinist doctrine that asserts that the elect will persevere in faith and ultimately attain salvation. This concept was first developed by Augustine of Hippo in the early 5th century, based on the idea of predestination by predeterminism. In the 16th century, John Calvin and other reformers incorporated this idea into their theological framework. The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is rooted in this specific understanding of predestination and remains a central tenet of Reformed theology today.
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There are some who now use preservation of the saints, which is much better and if that is how they use the P I would agree.
I believe your not seeing the full picture here, the constant dispute has been, who has the best insult.
Yes, but that verse is still a reference to His immediate followers and those who would be His apostles.
I believe Jesus is referencing who those who can be His Apostles (Disciples) on earth.
He had many more than the 12 and there is a winnowing down of people here (kind of similar to Gideon and the story of the men lapping up water.
God didn't need hundreds but only wanted 12 because Jesus knew all things and who it was that believed. This is very important for the Plan of God to come to fruition. Jesus had to go to that cross. He could not be made an earthly King. Just as Moses was lifted up (John 3:14) so the Son of Man must be lifted up. This is full of Old Testament imagery.
John 3:14 and John 12:32 explains how God is going to "draw all people."
When rightly divided it is all very clear.
I don't know any reformed churches that teach you can attain salvation by persevering in your faith, that's a works based religion your describing.
Predetermined or predeterminism in our church is looked upon as Gods will being inherent in everyone, and not God predetermining a persons every move. His will determines who will be saved in a person, and once saved there preserved.
So I don't see how any of your replies here which looks like an ai quick paste and copy, could be true of Calvin since my church has said they don't have any issues with Calvin's teachings.
It was out of context in not knowing for what time the words Jesus spoke were intended for.
He draws only the Sheep to Christ and the result is conversion, they follow Christ.
Well after a few months of trying for unity I gave up and only rarely replied to her posts.
I can see why you were confused by me being too cute. I meant that Baptist teachings other than the P more closely implied MFW even though I don’t remember any pastor preaching about that issue.
Viewing persevering faith as works is one of the nuttiest doctrines of tulipism.
And yet you provide no evidence that what Jesus said was not for today so on what basis do you think that aside from the fact it proves your standing to be wrong?
Oh ok thank you for clarifying that but as for what he said was out of context it was this verse right here John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
The way I see it it is the word of God and it says what it means and means what it says trying to say it was only for a certain group when there is no grounds to even suggest that is biblically undsound.
And the thing is so far no one has been able to disprove it but that is fine because I know that Jesus himself said it and that the only way around it for you guys is to try to make seem as if it was not for today but it is THE WORD OF GOD not some text you can just dismiss you either take it as it is or not that is up to you
what gets mostly not recognised here, is the Faith that is expressed in the Gospel from people, is the lords active faith instructing them inside there hearts, like when you hear the word believe in the lord and you will saved, that's the lords faith being expressed from inside that person. It's only not all the replies, are not always expressed in the bible as coming from the lords faith in them.
It Just passes many people by that all of Gods children are chosen to keep the way of the lord.