The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[TMS]

The basis of my relationship with Christ is the solid rock of His living word, not on the letter that kills. My boast is in the finished work of Christ on the cross, His death and resurrection. I died and my life is hidden with Christ in God. You should try living according to the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ. You never know, you might like it.

Dead to the flesh and dead to self = you don't follow the carnal nature. You walk not after the flesh.

If you are dead to the flesh there is another power that you live for = the Spirit. By following the Holy Spirit you do God's will continually.

Is it God's will to obey the law?

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

God’s law is the very foundation of His government in heaven and on earth. He gave these precepts not to restrict us, but for our highest good and protection. When we walk in His ways, we find that His law is a "lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path" Psa 119:4..

If you are dead to self and walk in the Spirit you will be living a loving life, full of loving fruits.. 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

And doing, yes DOING, God's commandments are important....
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

To truly abide in Christ the solid rock is to obey Him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

 

[TMS]

What a load of reckless fibbing. You have been around in these forums and I myself have exchanged posts with you, in order for you to know beyond doubt that what you are saying about has not the slightest truth to it.

Desperation to be right never looks good on anyone. NO ONE has ever said they think there are 2 ways to salvation. Actually though, no Jew is saved unless they accept their Messiah. There are many who have.

Maybe you should consider the fact that Jesus died once for all and your sad efforts create more of a two way for salvation than anything a non-Sabbath keeper has said.

I don't like it when someone says 'shame on you' but for you? I will make an exception.

Shame on you.

Do you believe in dispensationalism?

 

[memberofthebride]

I don't hate the Torah and I am not an Israelite under the law. You seem to be absolutely obsessed with the Torah. Are you seeking justification by the law?

The sabbath is a specific sign of the covenant between God and the nation of Israel (Exodus 31:13-17; Deuteronomy 5:1-15; Ezekiel 20:12), distinct from a universal moral law or a condition for salvation under the New Covenant. (Colosdians 2:16-17)

Ezekiel 44:6 Now say to the rebellious, to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “O house of Israel, let Us have no more of all your abominations. 7 When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to defile it—My house—and when you offered My food, the fat and the blood, then they broke My covenant because of all your abominations. 8 And you have not kept charge of My holy things, but you have set others to keep charge of My sanctuary for you.” 9 Thus says the Lord God: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel.

mailmandan

How do you get around the words of Jesus Christ? He told the rich man if he wanted eternal life Keep the Commandments.
Did the death of Christ change that?
My debt for my sins have been paid in full by the death of Christ, and in doing so He in effect has bought and paid for me, He is now my owner and if my owner says obey the Torah I will, as that is my duty to my Master.
obeying is my duty for which there is no reward.

 

[Gideon300]

Dead to the flesh and dead to self = you don't follow the carnal nature. You walk not after the flesh.

If you are dead to the flesh there is another power that you live for = the Spirit. By following the Holy Spirit you do God's will continually.

Is it God's will to obey the law?

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

God’s law is the very foundation of His government in heaven and on earth. He gave these precepts not to restrict us, but for our highest good and protection. When we walk in His ways, we find that His law is a "lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path" Psa 119:4..

If you are dead to self and walk in the Spirit you will be living a loving life, full of loving fruits.. 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

And doing, yes DOING, God's commandments are important....
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

To truly abide in Christ the solid rock is to obey Him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus is Lord of the sabbath. I've been born again for 53 years. Never once has Lord Jesus rebuked me for meeting on Sunday instead of Saturday. Obedience to God's commandments will save no one. The reason is simple. Outside of Christ, we are utterly rebellious and unwilling to obey.

Never have I read that it is God's will that we keep the 10 commandments. Jesus said that to love God and love our neighbour is the fulfillment of the law. Those who are born again have an inbuilt desire to serve God. That is much more than 10 commandments. Nowhere in the Decalogue do we get direction as to what God's will is for us. And obedience to God's will is the ultimate Christian experience.

The Decalogue was put in charge of me to lead me to Christ. I came to Christ 53 years ago. The law did its job. Now if these legalists are murderers or liars, or reject Biblical teaching, then yes, the law applies to them. My Bible, and probably yours, says this:

1 Timothy 1: 7 - 11
"They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or that which they so confidently assert. Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it legitimately. We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for killers of father or mother, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching that agrees with the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

I live by a new law, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. If obedience to the Decalogue saves us, then Jesus died for nothing.

 

[mailmandan]

mailmandan

How do you get around the words of Jesus Christ? He told the rich man if he wanted eternal life Keep the Commandments.
Did the death of Christ change that?
My debt for my sins have been paid in full by the death of Christ, and in doing so He in effect has bought and paid for me, He is now my owner and if my owner says obey the Torah I will, as that is my duty to my Master.
obeying is my duty for which there is no reward.

How do you get around numerous passages of scripture which make it clear that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 4:4; 10:4; 10:43; 13:38,39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6, 9: 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4, 13 etc..) Are you a part of the Hebrew roots movement?

In regard to the rich man in Matthew 19, Jesus showed the rich man how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and self-righteously declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Sound familiar? Yet Jesus knew the rich man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - "keep the commandments," and you will be saved, yet that's not what Paul said. Instead, Paul said, believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household. [if they also believe].

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich man the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus is Lord of the sabbath. I've been born again for 53 years. Never once has Lord Jesus rebuked me for meeting on Sunday instead of Saturday. Obedience to God's commandments will save no one. The reason is simple. Outside of Christ, we are utterly rebellious and unwilling to obey.

Never have I read that it is God's will that we keep the 10 commandments. Jesus said that to love God and love our neighbour is the fulfillment of the law. Those who are born again have an inbuilt desire to serve God. That is much more than 10 commandments. Nowhere in the Decalogue do we get direction as to what God's will is for us. And obedience to God's will is the ultimate Christian experience.

The Decalogue was put in charge of me to lead me to Christ. I came to Christ 53 years ago. The law did its job. Now if these legalists are murderers or liars, or reject Biblical teaching, then yes, the law applies to them. My Bible, and probably yours, says this:

1 Timothy 1: 7 - 11
"They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or that which they so confidently assert. Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it legitimately. We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for killers of father or mother, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching that agrees with the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

I live by a new law, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. If obedience to the Decalogue saves us, then Jesus died for nothing.

Amen! Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain. These misguided teachers of the law are seeking "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works," which is a "different" gospel.

In 2 Corinthians 3:6-9, we read - who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the letter of the law. This is why Paul tells us that the new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, and not of the letter.

 

[Qt]

Why is there no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the sabbath day holy? When the New Testament lists sins, sabbath breaking is notably absent. In Mark 7:21-22, there are 13 sins are listed, and Jesus did not mention breaking the sabbath. In Romans 1:29-32, there are 20 sins listed and not one of them is sabbath breaking. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, there are 10 sins listed and no mention of breaking the sabbath. In Galatians 5:19-21, there are 15 sins listed with no mention of sabbath breaking. In 2 Timothy 3:1-4, there are 18 sins listed, but not once is sabbath breaking mentioned.

So is it okay to take the Lord's name in vain or commit bestiality?
Of coarse not but they are not mentioned in the NT.

However the Sabbath is. It is mentioned a lot.

Romans 14:5 - One man regards one day above another; another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind.

No mention of the Sabbath there. As a matter of fact Romans 14 is speaking of man's opinions and surmising's Not God's Word.

How do we know? Because the context is set in verses 1 and 2. The context of the passage is in regard to not disputing with those who are weak in the faith over opinions in respect to what we can or can not do. Not what has been established in the Word of God.
Verse one mentions not disputing over opinions, not what has been established by God in Scripture. In continuing this premise he mentions a debate in regard to some thinking we should only eat vegetables. There is no mandate from God that we should only eat vegies. It is a opinion or a surmising one gets from scripture not a mandate, a Law from God. So when we get to verses 5 and 6 we should know that the day is not the Sabbath because the context is over opinions not the Sabbath, God's Law.

One might say, well how do you explain verse 14 where Paul says, "there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean".

Quite simply, that is a bad translation. The word translated there unclean is koinos which means common or profane not unclean. They are not synonyms. Acts 10 show us this. There in relation to Peter's vision both common and unclean are mentioned in respect to what Peter saw when he seen all manner of four footed beasts, wild beasts and creeping things. He did not see any clean animals there though they were because he seen all manner of four footed beasts.

You see they were no longer clean animals due to them touching the unclean ones.

Hence why Peter only seen common and unclean animals when he proclaimed he would not eat any thing common OR unclean..

Take not also when God censures Peter He says, what God has cleansed call not common.

God never mentions the unclean.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in his faith, receive ye,––not for disputing opinions:––
Rom 14:2 One, indeed, hath faith to eat all things, whereas, he that is weak, eateth herbs:
Rom 14:5 [For], one, indeed esteemeth one day beyond another, whereas, another, esteemeth every day:––let, each one, in his own mind be fully persuaded.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, unto the Lord, regardeth it,––and, he that eateth, unto the Lord, doth eat, for he giveth thanks unto God; and, he that eateth not, unto the Lord, doth not eat and give God thanks.

Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Acts 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

Acts 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Thanks for the reply. We will post more in relation to the rest of your post as time permits.

 

[TMS]

We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful

We are all sinners and all need salvation.

Defining sin is were we differ. Sin for me is to transgress the law. The law states clearly to remember the 7th day sabbath.
For me the law clearly defines what is sin.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

When the commandment comes, sin is revealed....

The commandment states that we should remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.

But somehow people are saying this is not a sin ????

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

 

[mailmandan]

So is it okay to take the Lord's name in vain or commit bestiality?
Of course not but they are not mentioned in the NT.

To swear falsely or take an oath by heaven would be to take the Lord's name in vain. (Matthew 5:33-37) In James 5:12, we see that James advises against swearing, which would be taking the Lord's name in vain. In 1 Timothy 6:1, for the name of God and His doctrine to be reviled, slandered, blasphemed would be to take the Lord's name in vain. Bestiality is covered under sexual immorality in the NT. (Romans 13:13; 1 Corinthians 6:13-18; 10:8)

However the Sabbath is. It is mentioned a lot.

Show me where Christians are commanded to keep the sabbath day in the NT. Colossians 2:16-17 states otherwise.

No mention of the Sabbath there. As a matter of fact Romans 14 is speaking of man's opinions and surmising's Not God's Word.

How do we know? Because the context is set in verses 1 and 2. The context of the passage is in regard to not disputing with those who are weak in the faith over opinions in respect to what we can or can not do. Not what has been established in the Word of God.
Verse one mentions not disputing over opinions, not what has been established by God in Scripture. In continuing this premise he mentions a debate in regard to some thinking we should only eat vegetables. There is no mandate from God that we should only eat vegies. It is a opinion or a surmising one gets from scripture not a mandate, a Law from God. So when we get to verses 5 and 6 we should know that the day is not the Sabbath because the context is over opinions not the Sabbath, God's Law.

One might say, well how do you explain verse 14 where Paul says, "there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean".

Colossians 2:16-17 - calendar laws are "a shadow and the reality is Christ." Galatians 4:9-11 - returning to "days and months" as obligatory undermines grace. Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2 - the early church gathered on "the first day of the week," indicating freedom to worship beyond Saturday. Revelation 1:10 - John’s "Lord’s Day" reflects a resurrection-anchored rhythm, not a replacement legal code. Romans 14:5 balances Colossians 2 (warning against mandatory Sabbatarianism) and Hebrews 4:9 (affirming the ongoing principle of rest) by protecting individual conscience in non-essentials.

Quite simply, that is a bad translation. The word translated there unclean is koinos which means common or profane not unclean. They are not synonyms. Acts 10 show us this. There in relation to Peter's vision both common and unclean are mentioned in respect to what Peter saw when he seen all manner of four footed beasts, wild beasts and creeping things. He did not see any clean animals there though they were because he seen all manner of four footed beasts.

You see they were no longer clean animals due to them touching the unclean ones.

Hence why Peter only seen common and unclean animals when he proclaimed he would not eat any thing common OR unclean..

Take not also when God censures Peter He says, what God has cleansed call not common.

God never mentions the unclean.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in his faith, receive ye,––not for disputing opinions:––
Rom 14:2 One, indeed, hath faith to eat all things, whereas, he that is weak, eateth herbs:
Rom 14:5 [For], one, indeed esteemeth one day beyond another, whereas, another, esteemeth every day:––let, each one, in his own mind be fully persuaded.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, unto the Lord, regardeth it,––and, he that eateth, unto the Lord, doth eat, for he giveth thanks unto God; and, he that eateth not, unto the Lord, doth not eat and give God thanks.

Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Acts 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

Acts 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Examples of food, drink, and days, are where a Christian's conscience should have the last word about whether he or she will exercise freedom in Christ.

Thanks for the reply. We will post more in relation to the rest of your post as time permits.

Who is WE?

 

[TMS]

These misguided teachers of the law are seeking "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works," which is a "different" gospel.

I think the way people are misguided and decieved is when they seperate grace and works. When they place faith and works contrary to each other.

Faith and works go hand in hand with each other. You can not seperate them.

True faith is not a mere feeling or a passive assent of the mind; it is a vital principle that reveals itself through outward demonstration.

Jas 2:24-26
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We are not saved by our works, but we are created for them. When we are truly in Christ, his power works within us to produce a life of service. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Obedience to God’s law is the natural result of a heart that loves Him. I'm not teaching salvation by works but love for God. Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. ....21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:....

Faith without works is dead...
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Faith plus works is what the Bible is teaching. If you remove the works your faith is dead..

The gospel is not intended to lead to a life of idleness, but to a life of active OBEDIENCE to the King of Kings.
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Faith and works are the two steps by which we walk the narrow path. While faith takes hold of the unseen power of God, works demonstrate that His grace is truly transforming our lives into His image.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[memberofthebride]

I think the way people are misguided and decieved is when they seperate grace and works. When they place faith and works contrary to each other.

Faith and works go hand in hand with each other. You can not seperate them.

True faith is not a mere feeling or a passive assent of the mind; it is a vital principle that reveals itself through outward demonstration.

Jas 2:24-26
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We are not saved by our works, but we are created for them. When we are truly in Christ, his power works within us to produce a life of service. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Obedience to God’s law is the natural result of a heart that loves Him. I'm not teaching salvation by works but love for God. Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. ....21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:....

Faith without works is dead...
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Faith plus works is what the Bible is teaching. If you remove the works your faith is dead..

The gospel is not intended to lead to a life of idleness, but to a life of active OBEDIENCE to the King of Kings.
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Faith and works are the two steps by which we walk the narrow path. While faith takes hold of the unseen power of God, works demonstrate that His grace is truly transforming our lives into His image.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

comment:

TMS; you are following Jesus Christ and not the words of Paul, that have been twisted into lawlessness.

the very simply way to understand the Torah --- IF the entire earth kept only the last 6 Commandments -- man, for the very first time would be at peace, no war, no crime. We have refused for 6000 years and we are now staring at world war three.

That time is coming when The KING of Kings comes to rule earth with a Rod of Iron under Torah Law.

 

[mailmandan]

I think the way people are misguided and decieved is when they seperate grace and works. When they place faith and works contrary to each other.

Faith and works go hand in hand with each other. You can not seperate them.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

You were saying?

True faith is not a mere feeling or a passive assent of the mind; it is a vital principle that reveals itself through outward demonstration.

Works being a demonstration of our faith (we show our faith by our works - James 2:18) is not the same thing as works being the very essence of faith or salvation by works.

Jas 2:24-26
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In James 2:24, James is not using the term "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

We are not saved by our works, but we are created for them. When we are truly in Christ, his power works within us to produce a life of service. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Amen!

Obedience to God’s law is the natural result of a heart that loves Him. I'm not teaching salvation by works but love for God. Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. ....21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:....

It comes down to which commandments are Christians under the new covenant (in contrast with Israelites under the old covenant of law) commanded to keep, and what exactly does it mean to keep them.

Faith without works is dead...
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Faith without works is dead does not mean that we are saved by works.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. P

Faith plus works is what the Bible is teaching. If you remove the works your faith is dead..

Not faith plus works for salvation. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate, there is no root. Faith is made alive in Christ and demonstrated in good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

The gospel is not intended to lead to a life of idleness, but to a life of active OBEDIENCE to the King of Kings. Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Yes, grace at apostleship first, then, unto obedience.

Faith and works are the two steps by which we walk the narrow path. While faith takes hold of the unseen power of God, works demonstrate that His grace is truly transforming our lives into His image.

Demonstrate is the key word.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Which commandments and what does it mean to keep them is of crucial importance to understand. We're not under the law of Moses. Those verses do not teach that we are saved based on the merits of keeping the ten commandments as certain folks imply. Multiple other translations of Revelation 22:14 read - "Blessed are those who wash their robes.."

 

[memberofthebride]

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich man the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)[/QUOTE]

comment:

""Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - "keep the commandments," and you will be saved, yet that's not what Paul said. Instead, Paul said, believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household. [if they also believe].""

Explain this to me mailman

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. “Doing” the WILL of the Father is “working at it”, DOING!
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
It can only be folks claiming they are “Christians” that say LORD LORD, claiming all these wonderful “works”, oh oh they are working but not at the work of God. AND it is THE MANY not the few. Are the 40,000, can they be the few?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
It is those claiming to follow Christ, Christ states “I never knew you:” and worse He says go away! Why? You are Lawless!
2 Peter 3
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And what is it that the 40,000 believe Paul taught?? “We are saved by “grace” not by works, not by law, thus lawlessness!
depart from me, ye that work “iniquity”. #458 lawlessness.

you are not following Jesus Christ, the only name under heaven in which there is eternal life -- you are following the twisted words of Paul which are lawlessness.

 

[mailmandan]

Explain this to me mailman

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. “Doing” the WILL of the Father is “working at it”, DOING!
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

In regard to Matthew 7:22, Jesus never knew these many people (vs. 23) which means they were never saved. These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and not in Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Sound familiar? Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Jesus Christ - Romans 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9) was still stained with sin. Hence, workers of iniquity/practice lawlessness.

It can only be folks claiming they are “Christians” that say LORD LORD, claiming all these wonderful “works”, oh oh they are working but not at the work of God.

Claiming indeed, yet Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. The work of God is that we believe in Him in whom He has sent. (John 6:29) Now compare Matthew 7:21 (does the will of the Father) with John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

CONTINUED..

 

[mailmandan]

AND it is THE MANY not the few. Are the 40,000, can they be the few?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
It is those claiming to follow Christ, Christ states “I never knew you:” and worse He says go away! Why? You are Lawless!

All lost unbelievers in the eyes of God are seen as "workers of iniquity" or those who "practice lawlessness" because their sins remain.

2 Peter 3

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And what is it that the 40,000 believe Paul taught?? “We are saved by “grace” not by works, not by law, thus lawlessness!

depart from me, ye that work “iniquity”. #458 lawlessness.

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit clearly stated that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) yet you seem to reject the words of the apostle Paul and instead teach, salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works, which is a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

you are not following Jesus Christ, the only name under heaven in which there is eternal life -- you are following the twisted words of Paul which are lawlessness.

[ How am I not following Jesus Christ? By rejecting the words of Paul you are rejecting Jesus Christ because the words of Paul are inspired and the gospel that Paul preached is not according to man, but came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:11-12)

 

[Gideon300]

We are all sinners and all need salvation.

Defining sin is were we differ. Sin for me is to transgress the law. The law states clearly to remember the 7th day sabbath.
For me the law clearly defines what is sin.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

When the commandment comes, sin is revealed....

The commandment states that we should remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.

But somehow people are saying this is not a sin ????

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Being convicted of sin is not salvation. Convicting the sinner is the function of the Law. Romans says that people without the law have a conscience that convicts or acquits them apart from the law. So all mankind is guilty. However, not all realise it. No one preached the law to me to get me saved. I did not know the ten commandments. The man that led me to Jesus told me about God's holiness and righteousness. The Law is only a shadow of the reality.

I'm not a Jew. So I don't subscribe to Jewish laws. I take my lead from the guidance given by Peter when the subject of the law came up in relation to Gentiles. You can read that in Acts chapter 15. The letter to the Galatians confirms what Peter had to say.

It amazes me that Christians are so keen to put themselves back under the law. When I was saved, I was on a warship, somewhere off the coast of Australia. I can describe the experience, but I do not know what day it was. The Sabbath is meaningless in the military. The bad guys do not stop so we can go to church. I did not know what the sabbath was about. I had to research it for myself.

If you want to keep the Sabbath according to scripture, good luck with that. Define "work" for a start. Jews are not permitted to boil a kettle to make a cup of coffee. They can't cook. They have to prepare food the day before. Is that the life that you want? The legalists in Jesus' time had about 1,000 rules about sabbath behaviour.

As I've said, the law was put in charge of us to lead us to Christ. I came to Christ. I don't need the law, thanks all the same. I live by the new law, the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. It's good enough for God and that's good enough for me.

 

[TMS]

Salvation is a gift.. we can't earn it

Faith results in fruits

And we disagree on which fruits are a demonstration of our faith.

Many say that the 10 commandments are not laws that God desires us to obey

But some say they are..

The bible no where tells us to stop keeping the 10 commandments.

Col 2 does not refer to the Royal law of liberty.


Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances.... a true study of this reveals that the handwriting of ordinances are not the 10 commandments.
Col 2:13-17
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

There were many sabbaths in the handwriting of ordinances and those sabbaths are not the 7th day sabbath that was set up by God for mankind before sin.


The Ten Commandments were spoken by God's own voice and written with His own finger on tables of stone. This law is described as "holy, and just, and good" Romans 7:12 and "spiritual" Romans 7:14. In contrast, the law mentioned in Colossians 2 is called the "handwriting of ordinances" Colossians 2:14, which refers to the law written by Moses in a book Deuteronomy 31:24-26.

Colossians 2:17 explains that the things mentioned in verse 16 are "a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." The ceremonial system, with its sacrifices, meats, drinks, and annual feast days, was designed to point forward to the death of Jesus, the true Lamb of God. Once Christ died on the cross, these shadows met their substance and were "taken out of the way" Colossians 2:14.

The fourth commandment is a memorial of Creation, not a shadow of redemption Exodus 20:8-11. It was instituted in Eden before the fall of man, whereas the "sabbath days" mentioned in Colossians 2:16 are linked with meats, drinks, and new moons—ceremonial festivals found in the Levitical law Leviticus 23:37-38.

There is more biblical reasons to prove that the 10 commandments are not blotted out. But many don't have ears to hear.

 

[TMS]

Paul said in Rom 7....
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul states that the law (10 commandments) is holy, just and Good, that it reveals sin, and is Spiritual.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

And Paul also states in Col 2
....14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

That the ordinances that were against us and contrary to us, were nailed to the cross..

It is clear that Paul is not talking about the same law in these two texts.

 

[Gideon300]

Salvation is a gift.. we can't earn it

Faith results in fruits

And we disagree on which fruits are a demonstration of our faith.

Many say that the 10 commandments are not laws that God desires us to obey

But some say they are..

The bible no where tells us to stop keeping the 10 commandments.

Col 2 does not refer to the Royal law of liberty.


Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances.... a true study of this reveals that the handwriting of ordinances are not the 10 commandments.
Col 2:13-17
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

There were many sabbaths in the handwriting of ordinances and those sabbaths are not the 7th day sabbath that was set up by God for mankind before sin.


The Ten Commandments were spoken by God's own voice and written with His own finger on tables of stone. This law is described as "holy, and just, and good" Romans 7:12 and "spiritual" Romans 7:14. In contrast, the law mentioned in Colossians 2 is called the "handwriting of ordinances" Colossians 2:14, which refers to the law written by Moses in a book Deuteronomy 31:24-26.

Colossians 2:17 explains that the things mentioned in verse 16 are "a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." The ceremonial system, with its sacrifices, meats, drinks, and annual feast days, was designed to point forward to the death of Jesus, the true Lamb of God. Once Christ died on the cross, these shadows met their substance and were "taken out of the way" Colossians 2:14.

The fourth commandment is a memorial of Creation, not a shadow of redemption Exodus 20:8-11. It was instituted in Eden before the fall of man, whereas the "sabbath days" mentioned in Colossians 2:16 are linked with meats, drinks, and new moons—ceremonial festivals found in the Levitical law Leviticus 23:37-38.

There is more biblical reasons to prove that the 10 commandments are not blotted out. But many don't have ears to hear.

"Hear O Israel............." The Law came through Moses, grace and truth through Jesus. If you want to know what applies to non-Jews, read Acts 15. And Galatians. And Colossians. And 1 Timothy 1:7-11.

 

[TMS]

There is no Bible verse to say we should stop keeping the 10 commandments.

People don't argue about murder, stealing, lying, but when you bring up the longest commandment, That God said to remember, everyone starts making excuses..

Excuses like we are not saved by works.
The law was only for Jews.

The bible does not say to stop keeping the law because of Grace or because the Jews failed.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Jesus said.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Jesus claimed to be Lord of the sabbath.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is talking about the trouble coming..
And Jesus states to pray that your flight be not on the sabbath. If the Sabbath ended at the cross why did Jesus state this?

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

The sabbath was made for mankind.
It was made for man at creation. Before sin, before jew or gentile, and Jesus does not distinguish that it was made for Jews.

When did the sabbath stop being for all mankind's benefit. When did it stop being sanctified and set aside for mankind.

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The bible does not say to stop keeping the Sabbath holy.

Jesus said Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

One jot shall not pass till heaven and earth pass.. the one law that God said to remember is the one that most of the world finds an excuse to forget.