The misleading use of 'Gentile'. All nations on earth are Goyim.

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ATG said:
Isa 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa 42:6
I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Once again, we see the falsely prophetic use of Gentiles as opposed to Jews. Which began with the Jewish use of Goyim apart from Jews, after all OT Scripture is finished..

The insert of Gentiles as non-Jewish Goyim, like the goyim of the isles vs mainland, is once again grammatically and prophetically false. However, this time with far worse damage to the Jews when Messiah comes. Who by that time had begun to falsely view all Goyim as non-Jews, for 'Gentiles' alone.

By falsely inserting insert Gentiles into the prophecy of Isaiah, it now implies that the Messiah only needed to enlighten the non-Jewish Goyim of the earth.

Mat 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

To the non-Goyim Jews of the day, Messiah certainly would not need come to themselves to save and be a light, as though they themselves were also in Goyim darkness:

Luk 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Why did the Jews of Nazareth seek to cast Jesus off the cliff, when declaring Isaiah's Messiah is fulfilled by Him, to his own kinsmen after the flesh? Because of the unscriptural Goyim vs Jew dichotomy set up by the Jews themselves, not by God.

The leading Jews of Jesus' day did not seek a Messiah coming to save them first among the nations, but only to lead the non-Goyim Jews into enlightening the darkened Goyim of the earth, who alone were nations sitting in darkness and the shadow of death...

And this proud error is later fed by false Christian interpreters, who continue to insert that false dichotomy between Gentiles vs Jew, into prophecy of OT Scripture, as well as NT doctrine of Christ:

Rom 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile (Hellene); But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile (Hellene).

They even insert Gentile instead of Hellene, which loses any semblance of grammatical translation, to be replaced solely by false doctrinal interpretation.

And so we see how some Christians caught up in the whole Goyim vs Jews error, will go with 'interpretive' translation, that promotes their own fashion of Gentiles vs Jews...
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So much time wasted on a rabbit trail trying to protect doctrine.

Just plain ridiculous.
Israel is a nation.

We can all see that.
Gentiles is "NATIONS"
No brainer " ...there is neither Jew nor gentile..."
Pssssst...THAT WORD "GENTILE" EXCLUDES ISRAEL.

PAUL said " There is Neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, for all are one in God's family."
Uh...there we have Jew and nations declared separately

Exactly what are you pointing to on your rabbit trail?

What ultimately is your non baseline that you think is a profound baseline for your doctrine.?

The gentle thingy you are struggling with, is blown away by PAUL making the same differentiation you say is bogus.

You are straightening out Paul?
 
ATG said:
Not a part of the uncircumcised nations, but certainly a part of all the nations on earth

God's holy separated nation one earth, was first by circumcision and law of Moses, and now is by grace and faith in Jesus Christ, which is not of the unholy nations.

Jhn 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

But we all are certainly goyim after the flesh. There is no goyim non-Jews, where Jews are not goyim themselves. And there is no Gentiles vs Jews in the site of God, who judges all nations according to our works, with the goy of the Jews first:

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Hellene; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Hellene:

If any one wants to call any nation Gentile, then so be it. All nations on earth today are Gentile to God, with the goy of the Jews first.
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Could be you are trying to say since a corvette Is a car, we don't need that word "corvette".
It is just another car, with no difference than a 1987 Ford station wagon.

Like Dino said...not worth the time and effort to assist your doctrine.
 
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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Only to Jewish belief. And that may be the point the OP is trying to make. That distinction is important to the Jewish faith, but it doesn't exist in the faith of Christ.
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Paul called himself a Jew, and the Jews his brethren.
I already Quoted Paul as differentiating Jews from Gentiles.
Paul was wrong?
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Paul was making a theological point. It has nothing to do with Christ in whom ae no natural distinctions.
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He did both.
You are making it "either/ or"

If the bible is one dimensional ( your argument), then you are not seated in heavenly places.
Because you are most likely seated or standing on a place here on earth.

Or you could make the claim that you are not here at all, you are in heaven.

The truth is you are in both at the same time.

But beyond that, Paul called the Jews his brethren.
Under the "strict either /or" Paul would say " they have nothing to do with me".

What does that doctrinal concept do with " neither male nor female" ,in the strict one dimensional interpretation?
 
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Psalm1 said:
But beyond that, Paul called the Jews his brethren.
Under the "strict either /or" Paul would say " they have nothing to do with me".

What does that doctrinal concept do with " neither male nor female" ,in the strict one dimensional interpretation?
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He was speaking about worldly things, not things in Christ. Like I said, that distinction is important to Jews. No one else cares if that distinction exists, not even God.
 
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Dino246 said:
There comes a time when you accept that language is not constant or you die on a hill. If we are talking about the biblical use of words, then it's fine to restrict their meaning, but if you want to understand people or be understood when you communicate, you must accept that someone's use (or perception) of a word may not be precise according to biblical evidence, even when the word is used in context vaguely related to Scripture.

Or, to put it more concisely, this isn't a hill worth dying on.
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Oh, but didn't you know, this is the BDF and EVERY hill is worth dying on!! You've been here long enough to know that fact. :p
 
Of course Israel as also a nation. But when the Bible talks about them not going after the customs of the nations it just means nations other than Israel, which will later be called Gentiles in the NT
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
He was speaking about worldly things, not things in Christ. Like I said, that distinction is important to Jews. No one else cares if that distinction exists, not even God.
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No sir.
It goes to covenant.

The Jew in the ot is Gomer. The wayward wife.

The bride of Christ is Ruth.
The bride of Christ is Betrothed.
With the bride becoming the wife IN heaven, in Rev 19.
Interesting, in the book of Ruth, you have the 2 wives, side by side, and Naomi ( the jew), is included in the end.
Naomi is handed the infant from Ruth to suckle, which points to both brides in the same house at the end.

In concept, it is both covenants under one new covenant. The Bible calls it one new man in Christ Jesus.
Therefore, it doesn't matter what religion. It does not matter what ethnicity.
we are all one in Christ Jesus.
No "jew"...No "greek".. no "Gentiles".
"One new man"

Like I said, I don't know of a single person, that reads, "neither male nor female" and then goes away and says "there's absolutely no difference between a man and a woman in any Christian church", then all members go outside with their shirts off while doing landscaping. Because there's no such thing as male nor female. We are all one in christ Jesus.

Ahem....that " neither male nor female" concept is FIGURATIVE.

"Neither Jew nor Gentiles" is also FIGURATIVE.
Nobody stopped being any sex at conversion.

How can anyone POSSIBLY miss that?????
 
Psalm1 said:
No sir.
It goes to covenant.

The Jew in the ot is Gomer. The wayward wife.

The bride of Christ is Ruth.
The bride of Christ is Betrothed.
With the bride becoming the wife IN heaven, in Rev 19.
Interesting, in the book of Ruth, you have the 2 wives, side by side, and Naomi ( the jew), is included in the end.
Naomi is handed the infant from Ruth to suckle, which points to both brides in the same house at the end.

In concept, it is both covenants under one new covenant. The Bible calls it one new man in Christ Jesus.
Therefore, it doesn't matter what religion. It does not matter what ethnicity.
we are all one in Christ Jesus.
No "jew"...No "greek".. no "Gentiles".
"One new man"

Like I said, I don't know of a single person, that reads, "neither male nor female" and then goes away and says "there's absolutely no difference between a man and a woman in any Christian church", then all members go outside with their shirts off while doing landscaping. Because there's no such thing as male nor female. We are all one in christ Jesus.

Ahem....that " neither male nor female" cincept is FIGURATIVE.

"Neither Jew nor Gentiles" is also FIGURATIVE.
Nobody stopped being any sex at conversion.

How can anyone POSSIBLY miss that?????
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There is only one covenant between God and Israel in existence. The new covenant in Christ's blood superceded and brought into fulfillment all other covenants
 
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ATG said:
Good study. Thanks. As I said, Goyim is not God's word for non-Jews. That is only a latter Jewish during the years of God's Scriptural silence after Malachi.

It became one of the main corrupt traditions made by Jewish leaders during that time, which led them to rejecting Jesus as Messiah, because He come to deliver and give light to all Goyim on earth, beginning with that of the Jews.

The leading Jews that had become 'anti-Goyim', were offended at being judged the same as them by their own sins and trespasses against the LORD God of Israel...

In similar fashion, later Christians after Christ's finish with Revelation, began propagating that old corrupt view of Goyim, with their own use of 'Gentile'.

Only goyim and ethnoi is in Scripture of God, for all nations on earth, whether of the mainland or the isles, whether Canaan, Accadia, Israel, Assyria, Rome, Greek, Russia, Brazil...

God has had only 2 nations of His own on earth: First by circumcision and law of Moses, and now by grace and faith of Jesus Christ.

Neither of them are by natural goy alone:

Gen 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Rom 9:7
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


How is does anyone turn Goyim for non-Jews into anti-semitism? It's some Jews that slur Goyim into an insult to non-Jews.
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However, God came to earth through Son Jesus as the perfect sacrifice for us all to choose to believe God or not, especially Jesus, Yeshuah, is risen where new life in Father's Spirit and Truth is given. Those that choose are sealed by Father to see truth and learn to abide in it, only if willing, will one, anyone see it and be new in rest from this world's trauma
Eph 1:13, 6-7 Done by Son John 19:30 for all to freely choose to beleive God in this amazing grace given or not. There are no fancy, esoteric words anymore to subdue anyone anymore, as is going on still today in this world
1 Cor 9 a deep Chapter to read from Paul to us all, as only father can reveal this to anyone in love and mercy to us all, thank you
 
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ATG said:
At some point after the OT Scriptures are finished, the word Goyim is used by Jews for non-Jews. Much as the Greeks called other nations Barbarians. Then the Christians after the NT Scriptures, the Christians joined in the fun, and coined all non-Jews, as Gentiles.

But, as with many such Jewish and Christian traditions, in the beginning it was not so.

Gen 10:31
These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations

We see here that 'Gentiles' is not used for all those goyim of the lands, which in future would also include the goy of Israel.

Gen 12:2
And I will make of thee a great nation (goy), and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And finally we see here, that the great nation of Israel sprung from Abraham, is a goy later called Israel. But for all nations before God, all nations goyim with God.

Act 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

All nations on earth are goyim with God, whose set boundaries include the goy of Israel. A Jewish tradition of calling all non-Jewish nations goyim, does not make that Jewish nation 'non-goyim'.

Act 14:16
Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

Including the goy of Israel.

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Beginning at the goy of Judea.

And even though many Christians have also traditionally allowed themselves to be painted with being non-Jewish 'Gentiles', there is no such non-Jew identifier of 'Gentile' nations in Scriptures of God.

The is no Scripture for Jews vs non-Jewish Gentiles, no more than for Greeks vs non-Greek Barbarians. They are both the construct of nationalist men, not of God.

Jews never had Scriptural right to label non-Jews goyim, as though they are not goy themselves. And Christians certainly have no right to join in and label themselves non-Jewish gentiles, as though they are not also goy themselves.

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Hellene; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Hellene:

Whether it's Jews calling all other goyim, Gentiles, or Greeks calling all other ethnoi, barbarians, neither are relevant to the living God, who calls all nations goyim and ethnoi, whether Jew or Greek...

Rom 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Gal 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Whether the goy of the Jews, or the ethnos of the Greeks...

As a Christian reader of the Bible, I never accepted the traditional fashion of being a 'Gentile', simply because I never cared for not being a Jew. Now I know why: Neither Gentile nor Barbarian are acknowledged in Scripture by God, but only goyim/ethnoi nations of the earth

Do the Christians, that find it fashionable to be called Gentiles, because they are not Jewish, also find it fashionable to be called Barbarians, because they are not Hellenic?

Afterall, it's not the OT Jews that ever wrote of 'Gentiles', but only NT Christians that made it up for an interpretation of separation between goyim/ethnoi, that God never has in the OT nor the NT.
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I'm not clear on the point you're trying to make, but I don't see a problem with understanding "Gentile" as "non-Jew" in the following verses:

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the [non-Jew]; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the [non-Jew]: Romans 2:9-10 (KJV)

... for we have before proved both Jews and [non-Jews], that they are all under sin; Romans 3:9 (KJV)

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the [non-Jews]? Yes, of the [non-Jews] also: Romans 3:29 (KJV)

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the [non-Jews]? Romans 9:24 (KJV)

Much of Romans 11 wouldn't make sense unless "Gentiles" in verse 13 is understood as "non-Jews".
 
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