Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View

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studier said:
It's interesting how you're noting how some of these theologies seem to work quite hard at diminishing, even negating the obedience. I agree with you.

BTW, I see the Text telling us that believing and obeying are so intertwined as to be inseparable and simultaneous, so I'd modify "2" above to say believe/obey it and from there into "3" it's a continuing and growing faith-obedience / obedient faith doing.

Good comments.
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Yes I think what happened is false teaching long long ago . Belief needs to be sincere so think of it

a if I’m sitting there and God tells me “ I’m going to flood the earth and everything will die . But you you build this ark just as I’m commanding you and I’ll save you and your family and make a covenant with you . “

aid I believe what he said of course I’ll act it’s connected what he said moves me if I believe it and do what he said will save me . Like Noah did

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Bit if god told him all that and then he said “ I believe you lord “ but then went on living as if the world wasn’t coming to an end and never acted upon Gods word ….. Noah would have drown in the flood not believing …… evidenced by his non acting upon the word he claimed to believe

a lot of people think faith means “ I believe God exists “ but also it includes that he’s a rewarder of those who are diligent in seeking him . Actions are definately the result and work in conjunction even forming obedience in our heart . Then we begin to act freely .

the issue in my mind is teaching about “that’s not true you don’t need to do anything “already saved ect
 
mailmandan said:
They believe that Jesus is God only because they teach a "Oneness" doctrine (modalism) emphasizing a single God manifested as Jesus Christ, (non-Trinitarian). They deny the triune nature of God as revealed in Scripture, as well as teaching that one MUST be “baptized in Jesus’ name” ONLY to be saved and that true salvation MUST be evidenced by speaking in tongues. No rigid baptism formula, no tongues, no salvation. :cautious:
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“Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
mailmandan said:
They believe that Jesus is God only because they teach a "Oneness" doctrine (modalism) emphasizing a single God manifested as Jesus Christ, (non-Trinitarian). They deny the triune nature of God as revealed in Scripture, as well as teaching that one MUST be “baptized in Jesus’ name” ONLY to be saved and that true salvation MUST be evidenced by speaking in tongues. No rigid baptism formula, no tongues, no salvation. :cautious:
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studier said:
It's interesting how you're noting how some of these theologies seem to work quite hard at diminishing, even negating the obedience. I agree with you.

BTW, I see the Text telling us that believing and obeying are so intertwined as to be inseparable and simultaneous, so I'd modify "2" above to say believe/obey it and from there into "3" it's a continuing and growing faith-obedience / obedient faith doing.

Good comments.
Click to expand...
But my point is noah would never have known what the right thing to do to be saved ….. until god told him .

you have to hear the word , then if you believe what he said will save you , obedience is connected if he told you to do something like he told noah

noah couldn’t have known or believed what was coming or known what to do until he first listened to what God was saying

the word is like a seed it’s required to hear it first then believe or sort of act as if it’s not true because you actually don’t believe what he said

faith comes from hearing the word

and then obedience becomes possible is what I mean so this is true

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But the thing is we have to find out what he said in the gospel to hear it and when we begin to do that we find out he’s teaching us how to repent and live upright lives and he’s telling us in the gospel “ if you hear my sayings and keep them your going to let and have a foundation . If you hear my teachings and reject them and don’t apply them to life then your house is going to crumble because it has no foundation

faith is in steps the more you hear and accept the more you become capable of . But at 30 I thought I knew then at 40 I realized I didint know but surely I did now at 40 then at 50 I realized at 49 I knew very little of his teachings at 60 I realized there was so much more I could learn and do at 70 I realized it’s a work in progress and perfection doesn’t come until Jesus does .

We’re disciples of a teacher . He knows we don’t know all this yet that’s why he came to teach us truth from god . If we have a sincere heart hearing and believing will always lead to the actions we’ll learn “ yes I need to apply all these things they all are relevant I’m going to be judged one day by Jesus and the gospel “ let me live for God as best I possibly can
 
Pilgrimshope said:
But my point is noah would never have known what the right thing to do to be saved ….. until god told him .

you have to hear the word , then if you believe what he said will save you , obedience is connected if he told you to do something like he told noah

noah couldn’t have known or believed what was coming or known what to do until he first listened to what God was saying

the word is like a seed it’s required to hear it first then believe or sort of act as if it’s not true because you actually don’t believe what he said

faith comes from hearing the word

and then obedience becomes possible is what I mean so this is true

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But the thing is we have to find out what he said in the gospel to hear it and when we begin to do that we find out he’s teaching us how to repent and live upright lives and he’s telling us in the gospel “ if you hear my sayings and keep them your going to let and have a foundation . If you hear my teachings and reject them and don’t apply them to life then your house is going to crumble because it has no foundation

faith is in steps the more you hear and accept the more you become capable of . But at 30 I thought I knew then at 40 I realized I didint know but surely I did now at 40 then at 50 I realized at 49 I knew very little of his teachings at 60 I realized there was so much more I could learn and do at 70 I realized it’s a work in progress and perfection doesn’t come until Jesus does .

We’re disciples of a teacher . He knows we don’t know all this yet that’s why he came to teach us truth from god . If we have a sincere heart hearing and believing will always lead to the actions we’ll learn “ yes I need to apply all these things they all are relevant I’m going to be judged one day by Jesus and the gospel “ let me live for God as best I possibly can
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Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8,9) and a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) before he built the ark. Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)
 
mailmandan said:
Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8,9) and a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) before he built the ark. Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)
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It also saved his soul because the messiah came through him
 
Pilgrimshope said:
But my point is noah would never have known what the right thing to do to be saved ….. until god told him .

you have to hear the word , then if you believe what he said will save you , obedience is connected if he told you to do something like he told noah

noah couldn’t have known or believed what was coming or known what to do until he first listened to what God was saying

the word is like a seed it’s required to hear it first then believe or sort of act as if it’s not true because you actually don’t believe what he said

faith comes from hearing the word

and then obedience becomes possible is what I mean so this is true

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But the thing is we have to find out what he said in the gospel to hear it and when we begin to do that we find out he’s teaching us how to repent and live upright lives and he’s telling us in the gospel “ if you hear my sayings and keep them your going to let and have a foundation . If you hear my teachings and reject them and don’t apply them to life then your house is going to crumble because it has no foundation

faith is in steps the more you hear and accept the more you become capable of . But at 30 I thought I knew then at 40 I realized I didint know but surely I did now at 40 then at 50 I realized at 49 I knew very little of his teachings at 60 I realized there was so much more I could learn and do at 70 I realized it’s a work in progress and perfection doesn’t come until Jesus does .

We’re disciples of a teacher . He knows we don’t know all this yet that’s why he came to teach us truth from god . If we have a sincere heart hearing and believing will always lead to the actions we’ll learn “ yes I need to apply all these things they all are relevant I’m going to be judged one day by Jesus and the gospel “ let me live for God as best I possibly can
Click to expand...

No doubt there is a process to believing. The Word defines and explains it.

There is much to the all-important reality of what genuine faith/belief is.

Noah believed God and was living in obedient faith (a righteous man, perfect/complete, walking with God). Yes, when the matter of being saved from the flood was told to him, he then responded as he was living - in continuing obedient faith which was already in his heart from some time in the past and continuing and enduring.

We're presented with saving truth (the Gospel) which can result in obedient faith - believing and obeying the Gospel (Rom10:16; 2Thes1:8; 1Pet4:17) - with believing in the name of God's Son Jesus Christ being commanded by God (1John3:23a).

The point I've attempted to make is that Scripture treats genuine faith as being in functional equivalence with obedience - two sides of the same coin - inextricably intertwined - however we can best state it - two different words in essential union.

To believe and obey the Gospel is at root interconnected, so this belief and obedience is first of all in the heart and mind. Then this obedient faith is expressed outwardly in good works.

My disagreement with the classical faith-alone thinking is that obedience is intrinsic to genuine faith and not an added demonstrative fruit. When we see the good works - the actual fruit - we're seeing the outworking of this internal obedient faith or faith/obedience.
 
Yeah I think obedience is the culmination of sincere faith they are linked and complete one another. Like a seed then later a flower
 
mailmandan said:
Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8,9) and a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) before he built the ark. Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)
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“Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it.”

yes I agree . His obedience was still required in order to be saved in that example from Hebrews. If Noah hadn’t acted he wouldn’t have had a boat . Factually.


“Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning. “

yeah Hebrews is teaching about faith . It was the end of Noah’s world and he was going to be saved by god if obeys and built an ark ….and God said then I’ll make a covenant with you and yours…..

Hebrews 11 repeatedly shows the same principle of faith you have to act upon what God said will bless you . And restrain from what he said will curse and destroy you .

actions are part of faith being complete
 
studier said:
No doubt there is a process to believing. The Word defines and explains it.

There is much to the all-important reality of what genuine faith/belief is.

Noah believed God and was living in obedient faith (a righteous man, perfect/complete, walking with God). Yes, when the matter of being saved from the flood was told to him, he then responded as he was living - in continuing obedient faith which was already in his heart from some time in the past and continuing and enduring.

We're presented with saving truth (the Gospel) which can result in obedient faith - believing and obeying the Gospel (Rom10:16; 2Thes1:8; 1Pet4:17) - with believing in the name of God's Son Jesus Christ being commanded by God (1John3:23a).

The point I've attempted to make is that Scripture treats genuine faith as being in functional equivalence with obedience - two sides of the same coin - inextricably intertwined - however we can best state it - two different words in essential union.

To believe and obey the Gospel is at root interconnected, so this belief and obedience is first of all in the heart and mind. Then this obedient faith is expressed outwardly in good works.

My disagreement with the classical faith-alone thinking is that obedience is intrinsic to genuine faith and not an added demonstrative fruit. When we see the good works - the actual fruit - we're seeing the outworking of this internal obedient faith or faith/obedience.
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I totally get that last part there . Faith should be taught up front that it’s not opposed to actions but rather it actually instructs actions and also promises blessing up front

Like this

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭

This word creates a necassary action and decision but offers also a great reward in doing plus a warning but only to someone who hears and believes it’s true
 
Pilgrimshope said:
“Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it.”

yes I agree . His obedience was still required in order to be saved in that example from Hebrews. If Noah hadn’t acted he wouldn’t have had a boat . Factually.

“Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning. “

yeah Hebrews is teaching about faith . It was the end of Noah’s world and he was going to be saved by god if obeys and built an ark ….and God said then I’ll make a covenant with you and yours…..

Hebrews 11 repeatedly shows the same principle of faith you have to act upon what God said will bless you . And restrain from what he said will curse and destroy you .

actions are part of faith being complete
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If Noah had refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in God's warning about flooding the earth, but of course, that was not the case. Noah was a true man of faith. :)
 
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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
You clearly don't understand the gospel. The blood is what saves. No cross, no salvation
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I do understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and I fully understand the blood is what saves. (Romans 3:24-26; 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14; Revelation 1:5) No cross, no salvation indeed. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; Ephesians 2:16; Philippians 2:8; Colossians 1:20)

Now what does that have to do with Noah already finding grace in the eyes of the Lord and being a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8,9) before he built the ark? :unsure:
 
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mailmandan said:
I do understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and I fully understand the blood is what saves. (Romans 3:24-26; 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14; Revelation 1:5) No cross, no salvation indeed. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; Ephesians 2:16; Philippians 2:8; Colossians 1:20)

Now what does that have to do with Noah already finding grace in the eyes of the Lord and being a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8,9) before he built the ark? :unsure:
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If Noah had not built the ark he and his family would have died and there would be no messiah. No messiah, no salvation.
 
Pilgrimshope said:
I totally get that last part there . Faith should be taught up front that it’s not opposed to actions but rather it actually instructs actions and also promises blessing up front

Like this

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭

This word creates a necassary action and decision but offers also a great reward in doing plus a warning but only to someone who hears and believes it’s true
Click to expand...

My point may be even a bit tighter than what you're saying. Obedience is part of genuine faith - meaning if we genuinely believe God is God, then we also have a mental/spiritual predisposition to obeying Him. Lord, I believe you are God, so tell me your will, I know who You are / I am ready to obey You.

Faith/Obedience is a mentality that is predisposed to do and does God's will. It is a mindset of submission ready to work.

There is no genuine faith that is not obedient faith - faith/obedience.

From there, we typically write James' version of the faith & works discussion as faith + works, but this doesn't accurately and entirely represent what he says. In James2:15-16 he sets up an example of faith at work, then:

NET James 2:17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.​
  • Re: "have" - the way I read this it really is not saying faith + works. It's saying faith has works - faith possesses works - faith contains works - works are a part of faith.
  • Re: "by itself" - this phrase is most literally "according to itself" - especially when combined with "have," it's again telling us something about the faith James is talking about - it's faith that possesses works as part of itself - it's faith that in accordance with itself has works.
  • IOW, this [genuine] faith is faith that possesses works as part of itself - works are not an add on - works are part of genuine faith - just as obedience is part of genuine faith.
  • This is the Faith OF Jesus Christ - the Genuine Faith that we have being in Christ - it is Him living His Faith in and through us and it has intrinsic to it obedience and works.
  • This Genuine Faith in us is submission to God - predisposed to obedience - mentally obedient - ready to be exercised in faithful obedience doing works.
  • We come to this in its initial state when we believe/obey God's Gospel of His Son as He commands us to do - then in mental, in the heart, faith/obedience, we are ready to do His will - to do the works He created us to do.
  • Genuine Faith has to do works because works are inherent in Genuine Faith.
 
mailmandan said:
Physically from drowning. He was already spiritually saved. (Genesis 6:8,9)
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Like I said, you don't understand the gospel. You have knowlege pieces, but not the understanding that puts all of those pieces together.

There's only one thing that saves us: Jesus blood at the throne of God that witnesses of his obedience unto death. That's what sealed the covenant whereby we are saved. There is no salvation apart from this.

If Noah and family had died, Christ would not have been born, and subsequently mankind would have perished. It wouldn't have mattered how righteous Noah was because it wouldn't have been enough to save him.
 
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