Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

The word "chosen" in Gen 18:19 is translated from the Greek word yāḏaʿ which means to know.

Read the verse in the KJV:

Genesis 18:19 For I know [Hebrew = yāḏaʿ ] him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Here is the first use of the word yāḏaʿ in Scripture:

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know [Hebrew = yāḏaʿ ] that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing [Hebrew = yāḏaʿ ] good and evil.





Based on the definition of the word yāḏaʿ I agree that God knew Abraham.

the English word "chosen" is translated from the following Hebrew words

bāḥar​

bāḥîr​

bāḥûr​

bārar​

miḇḥār​

None of those words are found in Genesis 18:19 ... the word yāḏaʿ is in the verse ... yāḏaʿ means to know.

Did you know that Abraham is called the friend of God in Scripture?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.





yes, Jesus said those words and He definitely is the way the truth and the life.

In Hebrews 11, we read of Abraham his faith in offering up Isaac:

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

now go back and read from Genesis 22:

Genesis 22:3-5

3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

The word "come" in vs 5 is in the plural number ... Abraham told the two young men he brought with him that both he and Isaac would return.

Truly Abraham trusted in God ... Abraham believed God ... one day we will live with Abraham in that city Abraham (and we also) looked forward to ...

Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

hope/pray you have a blessed day ...

.

Theres more than one understanding sis, and the underlying fact, Abram was saved by God, which by the account of his chosen disciples they where saved in his living hope, whilst his living word burned inside there hearts, this is cited in scripture, That God chose them, they never chose him, and that they where saved in his living hope,
whilst his word burned inside there hearts, making them believe

The understanding here, clearly gives understanding, that his word burning in there hearts, is also his faith.

Scripture also tells us God knows everybody, even the hairs on your head, which is clear proof that knowing and chosen are two different meanings all together, as all whom he knows are not saved, the greek that you cite here isn't really something you should lean on completely, i can think of a few reasons why, but it's not wise to completely draw this understanding away with different language meaning.

The story of abram being saved is How the lord describes people will be saved by God,

Firstly God' comes to you plants his way in your heart which is also his living word and his faith, faith is a gift, which also burns that much in your heart you make the right decision, Deuteronomy 30:6 and God is faithful and enduring with his faith in the heart when Deuteronomy 30:6 is happening, this is how he knows you, and chooses you.

like Abram knowing not to sacrifice his son, after God instructed him to.

So there you are you have a strong conviction inside you and the lord asking you to so something, only you do the exact opposite of what the lord has told you to, ?

Do you think that's done with any devine intervention by any chance ?

Any chance you can see that his living word and faith was saying no don't do it in Abrams heart ? And it burned that much in his heart he knew not to and believed ?

The same for when abram believed God, any chance you can see the devine intervention in his heart, as in burning in the heart making him feel right ?

Oh and is there any chance for once you can say yes, well this understanding is plausible, as you don't seem to even want to acknowledge, anything I say again ? Btw just make me feel as if my life time of faith and wisdom means not very much,

And then you wonder why there is division, incredible

 

[Genez]

Don't forget that some of these deceivers don't believe that God is necessary to bring people to belief.

Where are those people you condemn?
Not here!

Why do you keep bringing it up then?
For your straw man is having a cup of coffee in another room.

You got to stop listening to what your unicorn whispers in your ear.
He can not save you from your lies about others that you keep using to make your case against them.

May I suggest?
Get a good teacher.
Try sound doctrine next time.
At least God will be for you, even if others do not believe you.

You are stuck in a big rut.
Your pseudo refutations have become mere boring routine.

 

[Magenta]

Also, your question is really dumb since very many unbelievers do not question the existence of Jesus.

Even atheistic historians affirm that Jesus walked this world...

 

[Rufus]

No, I say He raises spiritually dead believers. Why would the Lord raise an unbeliever to life? They have rejected Him.



There were things Jesus did not know during the Incarnation. He never stopped being God so it logically follows that the Son is able to stop Himself from accessing all His knowledge when He wants. In this way He could create all men irrespective of whether they turned out to believe in Him or not and therefore no-one could accuse Him of playing favourites by only creating believers.



What interpretation? All I said was in the Greek the interpretation of "if" is specific based on grammar and syntax. Do you not know this? English has only one condition of "if". This is a brief overview of the different "if" conditions. And regarding study, it is why He appointed pastor/teachers. This does not negate one's own responsibility but unless everyone has the time to study ancient language, history and culture there are many nuances that are missed or lessons misunderstood. I personally value all those who take their appointment as teacher seriously and put in the hard work I did not have time for as I raised three children and made a home instead.

https://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/conditional_sentences.htm



What do you think it achieved? All it did was show believers from unbelievers. If God had simply said "well, isn't that nice they all believe Me" and did nothing else, everyone would still remain dead in their sins. Our will does not do anything, it does not create reality. If God had not decided to raise believers to life, then we could believe till the cows come home but nothing would have changed.



Huh? I honestly have no clue how you come up with that conclusion from what I said. Must I elaborate? Grace enables a man to be free to accept the word of God is true or not, it does not enable a man to believe. Grace does not guarantee belief, if it did, then Adam should have believed as Christ believed.

It's effectual in revealing a believer from an unbeliever. Beyond that it does nothing. Grace enables a man to stand in the same position as Adam while He is presented with God's truth. The problem is you assume we all have evil hearts innately. I have explained this many times. It is God who creates the heart. He does not create them evil. They become evil over time by rejecting the grace and truth of the Lord. He is in the world from the beginning, He has never forsaken mankind. From the time man hits the ground running, God is before him working to make His light and truth known. It is always grace first.

Gods intention was to give man eternal life. To say He created man with the specific intention of ensuring some would face death is abominable in my opinion and clearly defies the heart of God.

The Bible is clear as to why God does not raise all to life and that is because they do not believe, it is never because the Lord desires death. We all sinned so being a sinner is no reason to die if God can stop it but does nothing.

There's no such animal in scripture as "spiritually dead believers". A total oxymoron! This is why Spiritual Life (regeneration) must precede Faith. The Dead have no ability to believe. Those who live and believe in Christ are true believers. Besides...God is not the God of the Dead, only of the Living. Therefore, God raises the spiritual dead in temporal reality through the Eternal Living One who conquered death on their behalf in eternity. In God's eyes, though, they were always spiritually alive in His Beloved.

 

[Rufus]

I did in fact deny your attempt to falsely define the way Paul used IF in verse 3 because we have the Greek which gives us the correct definition. I have presented that but you deny Paul and God in how they used IF. But that doesn't shock me seeing how you deny the Scriptures in multiple places.

Which doesn't fit the immediate CONTEXT of the passage itself!

 

[Jordon]

Your job is to neutralize any decent discussion that begins walking on the right path.
You can shout all you want and claim to be what a Christian should be.

But, what you choose to represent yourself with?
Speaks 10 volumes.

With a dragon tattoo on an the left arm?
"Woke-ish" purple hair?
And, a magical unicorn who seems to be having a discussion with her.

Who are you kidding?

If you enlarged that picture and put it on display in front of a pulpit?
And, told the ladies you wanted to hold a Christian woman's conference?
Christian women would get up and walk away.

You have outplayed your gamble.

back to being a mean old Mr nasty again.

You really are the pits, it because of people like you that people don't share there faith, your a coward pal

 

[GWH]

The above passage contradicts Prov 11:20 (and a slew others, for that matter). You need to explain how God loves sinners while simultaneously detesting sinners with perverse, wicked hearts -- in the very same way that God detests sins of dishonesty (Prov 11:1).

From the Key OT Teachings thread today:

In Matt. 5:31 Jesus cited Deut. 24:1, which permits a husband to divorce his wife if he writes her a certificate, but Jesus contradicted
that law and said divorce is only allowable when the wife has been sexually unfaithful, so this verse will not be added.

In Matt. 5:33 Jesus apparently cited Deut. 23:21-23 (cf. Deut. 6:13 & 10:20), which commands a person to keep oaths they make in the Lord's name, but Jesus also contradicted this command by saying we should not swear at all, presumably because we have a reputation for telling the truth. Thus, this passage also will not be added.

In Matt. 5:38 Jesus cited Deut. 19:21/Lev. 24:20/Exo. 21:24 regarding punishing crimes by applying the principle of "eye for eye", but again Jesus countermanded this OT teaching by saying we should not resist evil people, although he does not define the crimes he had in mind as including murder and rape, for example. However, because this is such an important issue, we will include it with that footnote.

 

[Magenta]

back to being a mean old Mr nasty again.

You really are the pits, it because of people like you that people don't share there faith, your a coward pal

It is so funny he thinks she is whispering into the horse's ear when her mouth is well below the equine's
eyes and the ears well above that level. His myopic monkey is a good choice of avatar for him. He's blind.

His perverted views are not news to me, either. But his eagerness to try to pass off his wicked
imaginings and hallucinations as fact should be a red flag to anyone else reading his posts.

The Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. 1 Samuel 16 v 7 Perverted men see things through the lens of their perversions.

 

[Jordon]

Your job is to neutralize any decent discussion that begins walking on the right path.
You can shout all you want and claim to be what a Christian should be.

But, what you choose to represent yourself with?
Speaks 10 volumes.

With a dragon tattoo on an the left arm?
"Woke-ish" purple hair?
And, a magical unicorn who seems to be having a discussion with her.

Who are you kidding?

If you enlarged that picture and put it on display in front of a pulpit?
And, told the ladies you wanted to hold a Christian woman's conference?
Christian women would get up and walk away.

You have outplayed your gamble.

Is there any chance in your condemning cursing mind, that you could see, the very fact that magenta has not responded to you, whilst your throwing these accusation at her m, in at least 10 times I can recall you have thrown this accusation at her, and however many other times you have too, that the reason she is not responding to you, is because the avatar was chosen in innocence ?

Or perhaps in your cursing mind you could see well actually all the nice things that magenta says is grounds to believe she's not the person you make out to be, ?

And then you all wonder why you get ignored and called out, for the liars you are, when you miss represent her faith every day and disrespect her integrity every day.

Well I would say with your height of ignorance and others here, no you can't, not whilst you have a huge plank in your eye

 

[Jordon]

It is so funny he thinks she is whispering into the horse's ear when her mouth is well below the equine's
eyes and the ears well above that level. His myopic monkey is a good choice of avatar for him. He's blind.

His perverted views are not news to me, either. But his eagerness to try to pass off his wicked
imaginings and hallucinations as fact should be a red flag to anyone else reading his posts.

The Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. 1 Samuel 16 v 7 Perverted men see things through the lens of their perversions.

It's a beautiful avatar and I really like it the picture of God giving us loving bonds between horses and people is also beautiful.

The expression of love on the girls face is one of pure beauty to me Sis,

But the fact that someone like him uses it to curse you with and not just once but dozens of times just shows his mean nature

 

[Magenta]

It's a beautiful avatar and I really like it the picture of God giving us loving bonds between horses and people is also beautiful.

The expression of love on the girls face is one of pure beauty to me Sis,

But the fact that someone like him uses it to curse you with and not just once but dozens of times just shows his mean nature

His perverted imagination exposes his wicked heart.

And thank you. I have had a few images I've used as avatars over the years.

A gryphon is a classic heraldic beast, often seen guarding treasure or in religious art.

 

[Jordon]

His perverted imagination exposes his wicked heart.

yep the strange thing is theres many more like him, who display the same attitude towards you as in perverse imaginations, makes me suspect there all the same person

 

[JimiSurvivor]

You make the error that many do by conflating having a choice with having free will. Nor does having a human will mean that it is free, because it is constrained by far too many factors to be considered truly free, Especially as a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness because he is taken captive to the will of the devil. The will of the natural man is inherently in opposition to God and hostile to Him.

Nor does having a human will mean that it is free, because it is constrained by far too many factors to be considered truly free...

When the early Christians coined the term FREE WILL, they were not proposing that our wills are ENTIRELY UNCONSTRAINED by any competing desire. It refers to God to persuading us to act in faith regardless of our preconceptions or inclinations. For instance, when Jesus commanded us to forgive all men, even our enemies He understood that this would be DIFFICULT even contrary to our natural orientation. Your proposition requires that men can change ONLY when their wills are completely changed but this often requires us to let go of our self-idolatry before the King has taken up residency in our heart...or that He assumes control of us without our willing cooperation and consent. In fact, nearly EVERYTHING God calls us to do is "impossible" without the influence of the Holy Spirit who persuades us that we are sinners who cannot save ourselves and who have to trust in Him.

Paul said it this way: …25He (The Holy Spirit) must gently REPROVE those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 26Then they will come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, who has taken them captive to his will. …25He must gently REPROVE those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 26Then they will come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, who has taken them captive to his will.
(2 TImothy 2:25-26)
Reproof is a translation of the word paideuó which means: To train, to educate, to discipline, to instruct, to correct.
. The involves convincing us THAT we are in the wrong. It does not involve converting our spiritual essence so that it automatically becomes something better.

​

 

[Magenta]

yep the strange thing is theres many more like him, who display the same attitude towards
you as in perverse imaginations, makes me suspect there all the same person

I think some of them are probably misogynists, the way they project their perverted
male fantasies onto images and try to blame me for their delusional phantasmagoria.

 

[Jordon]

I think some of them are probably misogynists, the way they project their perverted
male fantasies onto images and try to blame me for their delusional phantasmagoria.

yep and probably serving a different master to no doubt

 

[Magenta]

Nor does having a human will mean that it is free, because it is constrained by far too many factors to be considered truly free...

When the early Christians coined the term FREE WILL, they were not proposing that our wills are ENTIRELY UNCONSTRAINED by any competing desire. It refers to God to persuading us to act in faith regardless of our preconceptions or inclinations. For instance, when Jesus commanded us to forgive all men, even our enemies He understood that this would be DIFFICULT even contrary to our natural orientation. Your proposition requires that men can change ONLY when their wills are completely changed but this often requires us to let go of our self-idolatry before the King has taken up residency in our heart...or that He assumes control of us without our willing cooperation and consent. In fact, nearly EVERYTHING God calls us to do is "impossible" without the influence of the Holy Spirit who persuades us that we are sinners who cannot save ourselves and who have to trust in Him.

Paul said it this way: …25He (The Holy Spirit) must gently REPROVE those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 26Then they will come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, who has taken them captive to his will. …25He must gently REPROVE those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 26Then they will come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, who has taken them captive to his will.
(2 TImothy 2:25-26)
Reproof is a translation of the word paideuó which means: To train, to educate, to discipline, to instruct, to correct.
. The involves convincing us THAT we are in the wrong. It does not involve converting our spiritual essence so that it automatically becomes something better.

​

In fact, nearly EVERYTHING God calls us to do is "impossible" without the influence of the Holy Spirit
who persuades us that we are sinners who cannot save ourselves and who have to trust in Him.

Exactly. The influence of the Holy Spirit of God indwelling us makes so much
possible to us that is otherwise, as Jesus said, impossible with man.

Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, man serves the law of sin which brings forth fruit unto death.

It is God Who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose. Apart from Me you can do nothing. No word from God will ever fail. “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus said, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

 

[sawdust]

There's no such animal in scripture as "spiritually dead believers". A total oxymoron! This is why Spiritual Life (regeneration) must precede Faith. The Dead have no ability to believe. Those who live and believe in Christ are true believers. Besides...God is not the God of the Dead, only of the Living. Therefore, God raises the spiritual dead in temporal reality through the Eternal Living One who conquered death on their behalf in eternity. In God's eyes, though, they were always spiritually alive in His Beloved.

According to you because you refuse to believe anything different. I'm not talking about faith. Faith and regeneration occur simultaneously. I'm talking about believing the truth of God when it is presented. One must accept what God says is true (believe) before one is made alive and that word that is believed becomes one's faith. We do not generate faith from within ourselves, faith comes form the word.

If regeneration was to precede one believing the truth then God would call people to be born of the Lord, not believe on the Lord.

 

[sawdust]

Well, the straw man fallacies that the Calvie's erect are not new but has been around for a while.
Just adds more credence to my contention that this is training.

View attachment 283281

The irony in that is, why would one seek help if they did not believe help was to be found?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and the Lord will raise you to life!

 

[sawdust]

In fact, nearly EVERYTHING God calls us to do is "impossible" without the influence of the Holy Spirit
who persuades us that we are sinners who cannot save ourselves and who have to trust in Him.

You don't have to be a sinner to have need to rely solely on the Lord God.

John 5:19
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:30
I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

 

[Magenta]

You don't have to be a sinner to have need to rely solely on the Lord God.

John 5:19
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:30
I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Jesus is God... And as such I acknowledge that He was entirely unique among the human race... so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.