Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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I did in fact deny your attempt to falsely define the way Paul used IF in verse 3 because we have the Greek which gives us the correct definition. I have presented that but you deny Paul and God in how they used IF. But that doesn't shock me seeing how you deny the Scriptures in multiple places.
I never realized there was an argument seeing how we have the literal Greek to explain what Paul from God meant.
And you deny or are oblivious to the verses that surround the "if" which verses explain its intent.
Their spiritual discernment needs to be developed more so they better
understand what it means when the Bible says the whole world is blinded.
Well, Magenta, unfortunately, and I hope I'm wrong about this, but I'm at the point where I no longer think it is
a question of discernment but of evil intent to mislead.
It is probably a mixture, honestly, since we see it frequently with the God blasphemers and false accusers,
always with their ad homs and pretending plainly spoken verses don't mean what they say, are taken out
of context, etc, or are irrelevant... they are so confident in their ability to do what Scripture says is impossible,
they rewrite the the very words of Jesus Christ Himself, and repeatedly butcher other verses to make them say
what they want... those types refuse correction, they do not care how wrong they are, their deceitfulness ties
in with their vain self-exalting free will idolatry, so it really would be difficult to separate all or any of it from evil.
To them everyone hears and sees and understands what Scripture says they cannot, the natural man is non-existent,
the gospel is not foolishness to the lost, it is not a spiritual matter, Jesus' incarnation is not a deep thing of God.
For the most part they disrespect context to preserve their "system" as needed.
It is not difficult to prove "the system" wrong...but it's impossible to get them to admit it.
In their indoctrinated brains "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" means they were elected or ordained FIRST then
believed after.
See how they abuse the context, in their world, "a person who was going to the ball game got on the shuttle bus to ride to the stadium." means they went to the game FIRST then got on the shuttle bus.
Once you show them the error then comes the vitriol, the ad hominem, moving the goal post, or the "you do not understand Reformed doctrine."
Not really funny, but they have a well known reputation, I wonder why, lol!!
It does not help vain self-exalting free willers when they look at the Spiritual Truth of God from their fleshly nature.
Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.
Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.
God does not conceal the Gospel ...Full stop!!
Remember you are conversing with people who think the message of Good News is deficient except for the specially created elite class who were bequeathed special understanding.
The gospel remains “the power of God for salvation” (Romans 1:16) whether believed or ignored.
I think we must remember that Paul is dealing with issues in that congregation, their concerns and how they are not always understanding truth.
Bible Hub also explains why Paul used "if" .. Paul was very particular about how he penned his words.
Paul begins with a gentle concession—there may be times when it seems the life-giving message of Jesus is hidden.
• This admission does not weaken the gospel; it underscores human limitation (2 Corinthians 3:5).
• The same humble tone appears in Romans 3:3–4, where unbelief cannot nullify God’s faithfulness.
• By saying “even if,” Paul prepares us to look beyond appearances and trust the unchanged power of God (2 Timothy 2:9).
Context Kills Calvinism which means It is wrong!
Well all men died then in Adam. So we born dead in sin
You have denied scriptures. A lost man has the gospel hidden from them and can't believe. 2 Cor 4:3-4
Your job is to neutralize any decent discussion that begins walking on the right path.
You can shout all you want and claim to be what a Christian should be.
But, what you choose to represent yourself with?
Speaks 10 volumes.
With a dragon tattoo on an the left arm?
"Woke-ish" purple hair?
And, a magical unicorn who seems to be having a discussion with her.
Who are you kidding?
If you enlarged that picture and put it on display in front of a pulpit?
And, told the ladies you wanted to hold a Christian woman's conference?
Christian women would get up and walk away.
You have outplayed your gamble.
Is cursing like a stevedore part of the package?Your job is to neutralize any decent discussion that begins walking on the right path.
You can shout all you want and claim to be what a Christian should be.
But, what you choose to represent yourself with?
Speaks 10 volumes.
With a dragon tattoo on an the left arm?
"Woke-ish" purple hair?
And, a magical unicorn who seems to be having a discussion with her.
Who are you kidding?
If you enlarged that picture and put it on display in front of a pulpit?
And, told the ladies you wanted to hold a Christian woman's conference?
Christian women would get up and walk away.
You have outplayed your gamble.
Don't forget that some of these deceivers don't believe that God is necessary to bring people to belief. Some of the same people will tell us to go preach in cemeteries and then blatantly lie and say they don't conflate spiritual death with physical death.
They have already been informed that word order in the Greek does not settle the message, yet the meaning is quite clear. To a Greek.
The Calvinists prattle on dogmatically about a stand-alone verse in English, clueless to its intended meaning far more often than not.
OK how about 99.999% of the time.
Likewise He did not conceal the 10 plagues, conquest of Jericho, destruction of Sodom, and pretty much everything else He does.
Not only that, there are Bibles everywhere in the world today far more than at any time in history.
God's intended purpose is to be seen and heard, obviously.
That is not an answer, and shows you can not concentrate on what was revealed in the question.
Here it is again:
Are those people who believe in Jesus Christ, who believe we have free will? Saved?
They believed in Jesus Christ
Not saved?
Here is what Scripture says...
Acts 16:30-31He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Note...
It does not say.
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and that you have no free will, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Are they saved?
They simply believed in Jesus Christ.
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Not saved, if they later on thought that they have free will?
How could they not be saved, if they did what was needed to be saved?
it is lunacy....
Not only is it an answer, but it's a biblical answer grounded in biblical principles! You just don't like my answer. On this thread, we seem to have many FWers who worship, revere and hold sacred their so-called freewill. Don't you know that God is a Jealous God and will not take a back seat to any idol?
Also, anyone who believes that man's will is free to choose against his immutable evil nature is very obviously self-deceived. So, they could well have deceived themselves into also believing they were true believers in Christ. Sin is deceitful. This is what sin does! Just going through the formal, ritualistic motions of faith doesn't necessarily mean those motions were sincere. The Israelites went through many religious, ritualistic motions, but where did that land the vast majority of them.
The better question would be: How could any God-HATING unbeliever have any love for Christ? In order for any ANYONE to truly love Christ, God must have first perform spiritual circumcision on that person's heart.
Also, your question is really dumb since very many unbelievers do not question the existence of Jesus.