What's the story about dating?

[Snackersmom]

I knew you wasnt offended! (Praise the Lord!)

I think that I need to joke around about it because I pretty much have said I am not looking for a any girls.. And joking about girls helps me to believe that I dont want another wife!

Hi again Edward.... just for the record, I wasn't offended by your comment because I realize you don't know me and I'm in general pretty hard to offend. But it was still a butt-headed thing to say lol .

You'd actually be surprised how much the ladies here absorb and just silently forgive because we know the guy is speaking from a place of pain or frustration. I figured that was the case with you too, so I didn't take your comment too seriously. But still..... there's always a line that shouldn't be crossed.

There's actually a lot of really nice ladies here, some legit romances and even marriages have happened among members. So don't count yourself out or sabotage your own chances with too much "joking", eh?

Best!

 

[Edward429451]

It's an interesting counterpoint to Western men feeling that all Western women just want money (which I certainly understand from what the horror stories I've heard from guy friends.) But they don't seem to realize that paying for a traditional wife and the means to keep her connected with the family that gave her all those traditional values is going to be even more expensive.

Not to mention all the time, cost, and absolute stress it can be to get a foreign spouse allowed into the country and able to stay permanently. Even then, they often can't work for a very long time -- years, or maybe not ever -- because of the myriad of additional fees and legal hoops to jump through. So the host spouse may very likely wind up being the only one supporting them for an indefinite amount of time anyway.

All the international couples I've known have gone battled through these challenges, and it wasn't easy on their marriage.

I guess I got lucky then, Her dad always worked and had a trade he could go get a job quick when he needed it. Oh I spent quite a bit of money on their kids but that's no big deal.

 

[Edward429451]

Yes, I think some Western men have a fantasy of finding a traditional foreign wife -- not realizing that this likely means they will be taking on, and supporting, a good number of the family.

That don't have anything to do with her being foreign. It is what it is. If the spouses family shows up at the door you can't turn them away (unless she turns them away!)

If I was your husband and your Sister showed up at the door. I doubt I could say no to you send your sister away. You would not let me. There was five kids in my wife's family I guess I did pretty much raise them too, but so what? EVerybody has to eat lol. My wife had 3 brothers and a sister and I bought all of her brothers new Ruger 10/22 Rifles and her dad! And me and both my sons. I didn't care about the money, it just, a nice thing to get a 22 rifle for a present! Her dad liked my 44 Magnum and sort of asked me for it through my wife! I answered so fast! Heck No! I spent time with my 44 and know what ammo it likes. So I bought him a new one just like mine and gave that one to him. Besides, isn't it better to get a new gun instead of one that's been shot a lot? I thought so. He didn't expect that!

So yeah, sure thing, that family cost me a lot of money. But so what I didn't care about the money, that's just what people do. I've never been greedy. I wanted to be married and girls always like handling money so I let her do that for us and it made her feel good to be holding the purse. She could do it, and I even taught her how to do our Business taxes and she was good at it. So why not? It was a mistake in the long run. I put way too much $$ in her hands. But money was just a means to an end for me.

 

[AnOldLady]

We've had a lot of conversation about what hasn't worked.

Have we come up with any process improvement ideas on this topic?

Maybe could we try brainstorming reasonably logical suggestions?

 

[seoulsearch]

We've had a lot of conversation about what hasn't worked. Have we come up with any process improvement ideas on this topic? Maybe could we try brainstorming reasonably logical suggestions?

I always appreciate your wanting to direct things to a more positive outlook, Lady. I don't want you to think that it goes unnoticed.

To be honest, I think a good number of us are here because we've either experienced or have seen mostly things that don't work -- without any positive resolutions or solutions. And in conclusion, we can only speak from what we know.

Many of us might not have any good experiences or observations to contribute.

I've known many people who have dated (and even gotten married,) but they share plenty more negative experiences than positive ones (at least from what I've observed.)

I've know a few seemingly happily married couples, but when I really got to know them and found out some of the things going on behind the shiny facade, I had to be honest and thank God I was still single.

NOT that all married couples are like this, of course.

But unfortunately, this has been the case of the vast majority of those I've known well.

 

[AnOldLady]

I always appreciate your wanting to direct things to a more positive outlook, Lady. I don't want you to think that it goes unnoticed.

To be honest, I think a good number of us are here because we've either experienced or have seen mostly things that don't work -- without any positive resolutions or solutions. And in conclusion, we can only speak from what we know.

Many of us might not have any good experiences or observations to contribute.

I've known many people who have dated (and even gotten married,) but they share plenty more negative experiences than positive ones (at least from what I've observed.)

I've know a few seemingly happily married couples, but when I really got to know them and found out some of the things going on behind the shiny facade, I had to be honest and thank God I was still single.

NOT that all married couples are like this, of course.

But unfortunately, this has been the case of the vast majority of those I've known well.

Hmm...Seoul, this doesn't sound hopeful. I know there are a lot of poor examples of "happily ever after" out there. I had hoped for some group brainstorming. The man who suggested arranged marriages had a decent idea, but at our age, or at least at my age, my parents have been gone longer than some of you have been alive, so there's nobody to do the arranging, unless I can recruit my adult kids, some of whom are grandparents too. Notwithstanding, the pickings are getting slimmer with each obituary. There were 20 in our small town this last week.

I am glad this thread created an opportunity for discussion and I've learned about several people from their stories on this thread and others. It served a good purpose for me, being new here. And your comments have been consistently affirming since I first showed up. I notice you're that way with most people, and I don't want you to think THAT goes unnoticed.

But...what if we found another angle to view this? Like...well...

How about marketing? What are the options and how does one manage them effectively? What about dating apps, social media pages, social opportunities (church, civic groups, volunteer opportunities) or anything else that anyone has tried?

Or how about introspection? What about me is interfering with what I want to accomplish and how can I work to align who I am with what I want?

Or qualities? What qualities are important in the person you seek? Where is that kind of person likely found? What are the tolerables, and what are the deal-breakers?

Do any of those sound like fodder for further discussion?

If so, have at it. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[33Michael33]

In the 2000’s we started with, ASL?

Did You Mean, AOL???

 

[Magenta]

Did You Mean, AOL???

asl = age, sex(/gender), location.

 

[33Michael33]

In my day we had to go into the wild and find our own. There was no automated application leave your info and breast size and your call will be returned! It took a bit of cash to go girl hunting but now I suppose a guy could stay home and screen them online for free now, and I've never clicked on any of that. But there's 1001 more lies to wade through than in person I bet!

There isn't any way that I would seek a wife and companion on some dating site where you can expect nothing to be real and it's all about the money. Dating is not Courting any more and it can't be done online for sure. Every time I've went out looking for girls (in my youth) I always met girls but never the right kind! It was always when I wasnt looking for girls that I'd accidently meet nice girls, so I married that one lol. Are us babyboomers the last generation to hunt mates in the wild? I wasn't looking for a mate when I found my (ex) wife. I was working making money. I ran a Hot Dog cart and we was at the 4th of July fireworks display, and she was there to help her Polish friend (and mine) that worked there too. So when I seen her I said hey Jerzy introduce me to your friend! So he went over to ask her if she wanted to meet that boy over there? And pointed me out but she thought he meant a different boy so said yes! And here I came over instead of the guy she liked, lol. And once I was there, there was no defense to my romantic charm. So I spilled some of my beer on her shoes cuz I was a little tipsy, and married her! Our first date was to go shooting 22 rifles and she had a blast and stayed for 26 years then jumped ship, Americanized lol.

But I had a good marriage so I noticed how peaceful the house is when for pushing 30 years of loudness and family crises of the day. Nope, I don't even want to consider marriage again. If God wants me to be married again then he's going to have to have her knock on my door. I've been asked out by women 4 times since I moved here, I must look like a guy with a job? Lol. So I toned down my dress and dress poor. It's like a disguise I think. Hasnt happened lately!

There aint no way any female I meet online could ever step in my house. Dating & Courting is done in person and not anyway else. Look me in the eye sweetheart when you talk! There's a spiritual dynamic that happens between boys & girls if it is in person, body language and personal space become a connection with the other spirit and will be either negative or positive. I noticed the difference while still young and played on it for fun. It's not whether you win or lose but how you play the game. But with over 8 billion people on earth there will be lots of no's and lots of yes's so never be discouraged and step up there into the girls personal space and look her in the eye and her spirit will likely freak. They love that stuff. But remember! You aint romantic until girls say it off the cuff and you're not really an expert until they tell you that you are.

Ah the good ol' days, the 80's was good to me.

Do

asl = age, sex(/gender), location.

I Knew what it Meant. I started Online Dating on AOL When I was a Teenager. I was Joking. Thank You Though.

 

[seoulsearch]

Hmm...Seoul, this doesn't sound hopeful. I know there are a lot of poor examples of "happily ever after" out there. I had hoped for some group brainstorming. The man who suggested arranged marriages had a decent idea, but at our age, or at least at my age, my parents have been gone longer than some of you have been alive, so there's nobody to do the arranging, unless I can recruit my adult kids, some of whom are grandparents too. Notwithstanding, the pickings are getting slimmer with each obituary. There were 20 in our small town this last week.

I am glad this thread created an opportunity for discussion and I've learned about several people from their stories on this thread and others. It served a good purpose for me, being new here. And your comments have been consistently affirming since I first showed up. I notice you're that way with most people, and I don't want you to think THAT goes unnoticed.

But...what if we found another angle to view this? Like...well...

How about marketing? What are the options and how does one manage them effectively? What about dating apps, social media pages, social opportunities (church, civic groups, volunteer opportunities) or anything else that anyone has tried?

Or how about introspection? What about me is interfering with what I want to accomplish and how can I work to align who I am with what I want?

Or qualities? What qualities are important in the person you seek? Where is that kind of person likely found? What are the tolerables, and what are the deal-breakers?

Do any of those sound like fodder for further discussion?

If so, have at it. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Hi Lady,

I apologize in that I might not be able to give the answers you are looking for. You're asking wonderful questions, and I really appreciate you asking, but I'm sorry to say you might not get as much response as you might be looking for.

The people who have been here in Singles a while are used to seeing these questions asked quite often, so they might not answer simply from burnout. You'll likely get more responses from newer members, which is fantastic -- but unfortunately, we don't seem to retain people here for very long.

I don't know if you will find this helpful, but when it comes writing threads about some of the heavier topics (tolerables and deal-breakers for example, as you mentioned,) I tend to center a thread around a main topic, then ask about 3 sub-questions at the end of the opening post to try give people something specific to answer.

I've found that putting too many questions or generalities in one thread often kills it, because people will read all the questions but not know which ones to answer first, or will get overwhelmed by so many topics being opened at once that they won't answer at all. This is just me though -- you might find things to be different.

I also love that you are so attentive to what others write, and that you're getting to know people through their stories.

I personally would not want an arranged marriage at all. I love my parents, but they have a very different personality profile than I do and would pick someone based on who they are rather than who I am. For instance, I am obviously a deep communicator; my parents are wonderful, but don't value layered communication or social cues the way that I do. Could you see them trying to pick someone out for me? It would be a disaster, and result in the death of a major part of my soul.

As for all the questions about dating -- in my own way, I have become a jaded old lady, and am very much going to sound like one.

I didn't have many relationships, but they were each terrible in their own way. And I'm sure the other person involved could say the same of me.

Years ago, determined to find a spouse, I hit the dating scene in full force -- both a real-life dating service and those online. I was at church 5-7 days a week, involved in most everything they had to offer. And all I found was that for me, being an active part of the dating world was lonely, disappointing, and expensive.

One of the main reasons I'm single, if I can put it bluntly, is because for whatever reason, most of the guys I was interested in had an attraction to pornography they couldn't shake, and I know from past experience, I can't compete with that.

As I wrote in an earlier post, I've talked with other Christian women and they may find a guy they like who can talk Scripture and prayer all day and night -- eagerly trying to "lead" them -- and then in the next text, want to send them naked pictures of themselves, and ask them to send naked pictures in return.

It's something that I think is rampant in the dating world, Christian or not, that no one ever talks about -- and that's been my frustration with the Christian community all my life -- the things people gloss over, but no one ever talks about.

People can call me a Jezebel or whatever they want, but I can't see myself "being led" or "submissive" to a guy who recites Bible passages in one breath and wants to send pictures of his nether regions in the next -- then is glued to a screen full of "Not Safe For Work" (another modern term for porn) images in between.

And I think there is a lot more of of this out there than anyone in the Christian world will discuss -- for both men and women. With OnlyFans (people's own personal paid porn performance channels) being pushed as an actual "career", it's no wonder that both men AND women are caught in this trap of wanting to see and be seen. Social media enforces it as the norm.

Now, I'm certainly NOT trying to condemn anyone who struggles with any of these things. And I am definitely NOT trying to say that all men struggle with this. As I said, I know it can be for both men and women. My whole life, people have talked to me about their sexual struggles, so I'm very familiar with talking to people about these kinds of topics and praying earnestly for them.

Because of this, at one point, I thought God probably had it in mind for me to marry someone who had these kinds of struggles. But I found out in my few relationships that I am not built to try to fight this kind of thing if someone brings it into my own personal life. I have my own struggles like anyone, but God seems to place strict boundaries on what I can and cannot deal with, and like most, I've had to learn my limits in the toughest ways.

I can be friends with most anyone; but as for whom I allow to get close to me, I have to be far more discerning or I will start to sink into a downward spiral and take the other person with me.

I also want to emphasize again that I surely know not everyone -- man or woman -- struggles with these things, but for whatever reason, the guys I know who don't have this issue have all been just friends.

I don't know what God has for me, but I have to be honest -- when it comes to dating, no, I'm not all that hopeful.

For myself, and I can only speak for myself, is that I have to just live life -- and if I meet a few awesome people along the way to make the journey worthwhile, I am extremely thankful.

 

[zeroturbulence]

God is the ultimate matchmaker. Trust in Him and pray.

 

[zeroturbulence]

 

[Snackersmom]

Hmm...Seoul, this doesn't sound hopeful. I know there are a lot of poor examples of "happily ever after" out there. I had hoped for some group brainstorming. The man who suggested arranged marriages had a decent idea, but at our age, or at least at my age, my parents have been gone longer than some of you have been alive, so there's nobody to do the arranging, unless I can recruit my adult kids, some of whom are grandparents too. Notwithstanding, the pickings are getting slimmer with each obituary. There were 20 in our small town this last week.

I am glad this thread created an opportunity for discussion and I've learned about several people from their stories on this thread and others. It served a good purpose for me, being new here. And your comments have been consistently affirming since I first showed up. I notice you're that way with most people, and I don't want you to think THAT goes unnoticed.

But...what if we found another angle to view this? Like...well...

How about marketing? What are the options and how does one manage them effectively? What about dating apps, social media pages, social opportunities (church, civic groups, volunteer opportunities) or anything else that anyone has tried?

Or how about introspection? What about me is interfering with what I want to accomplish and how can I work to align who I am with what I want?

Or qualities? What qualities are important in the person you seek? Where is that kind of person likely found? What are the tolerables, and what are the deal-breakers?

Do any of those sound like fodder for further discussion?

If so, have at it. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Hi miss lady, thoughtful questions!

Like Seoul said, if we had good answers to what you brought up then a lot of is wouldn't be here .

I live in a rural community and the pickings are pretty slim. Most of the serious Christians in my age range are already married. At 42 I'm kinda old for the never-marrieds and too young for the widowers. Both serious relationships I've had started online, right here on CC actually.

I know this isn't a dating site, but the casual atmosphere is a great way to get to know people without registering that you're interested. You can watch how they interact with others on the sly, lol.

I've never joined a dating site, just never felt led to. I've noticed that anytime guys see me as "looking" or "available", they read that as "desperate" or "low standards".

So I just go about my life and if anyone asks I'll say I'm not really looking. But that don't mean I've got my eyes closed lol . The small handful of very special guys I've gotten close to all stood out from the crowd, I didn't really have to "look" to find them because they were obvious. In all cases, friendship was the foundation.

I don't know if your community offers any senior trips or events, but it's worth looking in to. If a guy is interested in you he'll find out if you're available, I don't really think you need to advertise it. Just live your life, be yourself, seek The Kingdom, and keep your eyes open!

Best!

 

[Levib]

Did You Mean, AOL???

Yeah and before AOL Messenger was free e had one called FreeTell I think. Then yahoo messenger and so many more.

 

[AnOldLady]

Jesus mentioned that the mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart, and we know it's the case. When I first started reading on ChristianChat, there was a hilarious thread about setting a man-trap, which led to this thread. I read the funny things many folks said and wondered how deeply at least some people wanted a good resolution to their singleness, so it seemed sensible to explore it. If we keep trying what we've always tried, likely we'll get the same results, I've heard. Of course, some of us find ways to make it worse, lol! Even old as I am, it was always my goal to have an intact family., but beyond that, it's my goal to keep running the race, looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of my faith. I appreciate the many thoughtful replies. We've definitely explored some of the obstacles.

 

[RegisterNow]

What does dating mean? What does it accomplish? What ways could dating be improved to be more effective?

I'm an old lady re-entering a field of singleness and (lol) man-hunting (using that term after recent posts that I found hilarious). I had to face the fact that I'm clueless about dating. I lived most of my life not dating, other than those crazy teen years when your parents first allowed me to double-date and it was usually to a movie with my best girlfriend and two male classmates, with all of us being clueless as to how the rest of our lives was supposed to proceed.

Could we use this thread to explore ideas about what works and what doesn't? I appreciate analytical thinking as well as humor, so have at it, friends.

You know, there's this joke about menopause, reading it as "men on pause". If you're not sure what to accomplish, maybe it's wise to take a pause on men.

 

[AnOldLady]

You know, there's this joke about menopause, reading it as "men on pause". If you're not sure what to accomplish, maybe it's wise to take a pause on men.

That's funny, and were I unsure WHAT to accomplish, it would be good advise to consider, Reg.

The question was about dating, and it wasn't about me - just saying that to clarify. Yes, my situation is that I'm an older lady and yes, I didn't find "dating" in the American tradition effective the first time and I'm not inclined to think it would be helpful at my age. That raised the question if it would be helpful at any age. So I asked the general question.

It might be fodder for another thread, and if so, anyone can feel free to start it, or if I get around to it I might. There is a lot of psycho-chat out there about why "relationships" fail. One prevalent theory is that we've cut the legs out from under our sons to where they don't grow up into their positions of confident power to be the strong defenders of society at large and their families in particular, but instead deal with deep wounds of inadequacy. When women, who've been increasingly empowered from their childhood since maybe back as far as the 1940's (and more over the years), express their confidence, men might feel they have to shrink away, which hits on the potential deep wound of "her desire shall be for her husband" from back in Genesis, or perhaps on the commonly accepted theories of the human need for attachment. The cycle of women trying to chase down a retreating male to try to have what should be a standard discussion ends up perpetuating the downward spiral for both of them. I don't know any woman who sets out to be a nag, and I don't know any men (or women) who want to be nagged. At that point, communication, followed by trust, breaks down, and it eithers becomes a genuine mess or something to be genuinely pitied. Leonard Sax wrote much about this in his several books on raising children, and relationship coaches like Angelika Kohn and the plethora of others seem to focus on dealing with the fallout of these kids now grown up and failing in attachment. I'm not into pop psychology, but some of this comes together to be a reasonable explanation for the barriers and obstacles mentioned in this chat. And I'm not limiting this to the one scenario. I've noticed that many of the women in this chat are strong, grounded, and good communicators, people I'd like to know better and be good friends with. And many of the men are good communicators and engaged, people I'd like to know better and be good friends with as well. Of course, you are ALL likely to be the ages of my kids or grandkids. Effective relationships (attachments isn't a bad term for it) make for a more stable society, and I'm all for whatever can heal us to be those good examples (in reality, not just in appearance).

Of course, it doesn't start or stop there. This is just information to use as a matrix of sorts. In the horror stories I've heard through the years, realizing that in most cases I heard the wife's perspective, women were concerned that they didn't feel safe when he retreated and that trying to get their husband's engagement led to the disconnected feelings that made the physical part of marriage seem wrong. And you can see where that could become a vicious cycle.

We have the Scriptures to guide us. We're told what the relationship standards are: men, love your wives as your own bodies, cherish, nourish, water her with the word, as Christ gave Himself for her, do likewise for your wife (mostly from 1 Peter, I think). Not to pick on men, but it's a good place to start because of our commonly held view that men are the leaders of the family. We know that love is a verb, not just a feeling. It raises the question what does that love look like when expressed to a woman/wife, and more specifically, what actions show it and what action inhibit it?

I'm curious how the godly men reading this would respond Hopefully you have all realized that I'm just a voice out here writing thoughts on the screen for the purpose of discussion and what we can learn from one another and I'm not interested in gender-bashing and have no intention of using anything anyone says to bash them. And godly ladies, feel free to add thoughts as well, as always. Long post, possibly qualifying as a rant. Thanks for reading. Hope to hear how you respond.

 

[Lynx]

That's funny, and were I unsure WHAT to accomplish, it would be good advise to consider, Reg.

The question was about dating, and it wasn't about me - just saying that to clarify. Yes, my situation is that I'm an older lady and yes, I didn't find "dating" in the American tradition effective the first time and I'm not inclined to think it would be helpful at my age. That raised the question if it would be helpful at any age. So I asked the general question.

It might be fodder for another thread, and if so, anyone can feel free to start it, or if I get around to it I might. There is a lot of psycho-chat out there about why "relationships" fail. One prevalent theory is that we've cut the legs out from under our sons to where they don't grow up into their positions of confident power to be the strong defenders of society at large and their families in particular, but instead deal with deep wounds of inadequacy. When women, who've been increasingly empowered from their childhood since maybe back as far as the 1940's (and more over the years), express their confidence, men might feel they have to shrink away, which hits on the potential deep wound of "her desire shall be for her husband" from back in Genesis, or perhaps on the commonly accepted theories of the human need for attachment. The cycle of women trying to chase down a retreating male to try to have what should be a standard discussion ends up perpetuating the downward spiral for both of them. I don't know any woman who sets out to be a nag, and I don't know any men (or women) who want to be nagged. At that point, communication, followed by trust, breaks down, and it eithers becomes a genuine mess or something to be genuinely pitied. Leonard Sax wrote much about this in his several books on raising children, and relationship coaches like Angelika Kohn and the plethora of others seem to focus on dealing with the fallout of these kids now grown up and failing in attachment. I'm not into pop psychology, but some of this comes together to be a reasonable explanation for the barriers and obstacles mentioned in this chat. And I'm not limiting this to the one scenario. I've noticed that many of the women in this chat are strong, grounded, and good communicators, people I'd like to know better and be good friends with. And many of the men are good communicators and engaged, people I'd like to know better and be good friends with as well. Of course, you are ALL likely to be the ages of my kids or grandkids. Effective relationships (attachments isn't a bad term for it) make for a more stable society, and I'm all for whatever can heal us to be those good examples (in reality, not just in appearance).

Of course, it doesn't start or stop there. This is just information to use as a matrix of sorts. In the horror stories I've heard through the years, realizing that in most cases I heard the wife's perspective, women were concerned that they didn't feel safe when he retreated and that trying to get their husband's engagement led to the disconnected feelings that made the physical part of marriage seem wrong. And you can see where that could become a vicious cycle.

We have the Scriptures to guide us. We're told what the relationship standards are: men, love your wives as your own bodies, cherish, nourish, water her with the word, as Christ gave Himself for her, do likewise for your wife (mostly from 1 Peter, I think). Not to pick on men, but it's a good place to start because of our commonly held view that men are the leaders of the family. We know that love is a verb, not just a feeling. It raises the question what does that love look like when expressed to a woman/wife, and more specifically, what actions show it and what action inhibit it?

I'm curious how the godly men reading this would respond Hopefully you have all realized that I'm just a voice out here writing thoughts on the screen for the purpose of discussion and what we can learn from one another and I'm not interested in gender-bashing and have no intention of using anything anyone says to bash them. And godly ladies, feel free to add thoughts as well, as always. Long post, possibly qualifying as a rant. Thanks for reading. Hope to hear how you respond.

seoulsearch? Is that you?

How did you do hack AnOldLady's account? You're always talking about not knowing about much about computers. Is that a cover?

 

[AnOldLady]

seoulsearch? Is that you?

How did you do hack AnOldLady's account? You're always talking about not knowing about much about computers. Is that a cover?

Hi Lynx. You are quoting me but addressing seoulsearch. I'm confused. What do you mean?

 

[cinder]

Hi Lynx. You are quoting me but addressing seoulsearch. I'm confused. What do you mean?

It's a compliment, he meant you sounded like seoulsearch.

Anyway as to the questions you raised. I think a big issue in modern times is that far too many women give off super entitled vibes. We can't blame the guys too much when they're dealing with women who rarely say thank you or take time to acknowledge what they're doing well or right. And this happens with good men so much people (or at least I picked it up somewhere) have started calling it white knight syndrome. Guy rides in to save a girl from the crappy circumstances she's in and does everything to take care of her only to finally realize that she didn't want to be saved from her situation, she wanted to be saved from the consequences of her bad decisions so she can keep on doing what she's doing. Ultimately either he gets fed up with it and leaves her or she thinks she can do better and leaves him.

I was actually thinking about this a bit earlier today. Back at like the one and only women's event I attended at my current church ( being single, childless, and having a more masculine personality women's ministries never seem to fit me well) they had a panel of women talking about what their husbands did to be spiritual leaders in the home. And while I didn't think of it at the time, just earlier today I was thinking of that and thinking that it would have been much better for the men to get together and swap ideas about what they did to be spiritual leaders in the home. Then the men can come home with new things to try and be thoughtful and the wives will be impressed at him taking initiative. Have the women get together and talk about what their husbands do and somewhere there's going to be a woman who goes home to her husband and complains that he's not a good leader because he never thought to do what someone else's husband does (this is purely speculative and in the interest of fairness I have to say that I have heard no such stories come out of women's ministry, but then again married women and I usually don't run in the same church circles).

And perhaps the biggest problem is that men's "sins" are known and obvious while no one calls women out on their sins in the same way ( gossip, envy, emotional manipulation).

So my best advice to combat all of that is if you're pursuing a relationship, care more about doing good to the other person than what you're getting, and find a person who reciprocates that.