Loss of salvation???

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In Acts 19:2, Paul asked these disciples of John if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet saved believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith in Christ, they were then (afterwards) baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10, so this is the exception, not the rule). It did signify their inclusion into the church. Apostles were also present to lay hands on the Samaritans in Acts chapter 8. God's purpose here was to emphasize unity in the church. The Jews despised the Samaritans.

Thank you for all of your wisdom,

In Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19 they all were filled with the spirit and spoke in tongues.

So according to JESUS in John 3:5 and in Mark 16 17, Peter in Acts 2:33 they were born of the spirit.

SO IT IS THE RULE.

The question still stands, you not answering that question tells me you haven't.

You can if you like?
 
yes, I sin - I repent and try to do good, believe and follow Jesus’ guidance.

I note your position - but you’ve IGNORED / not responded to the passages!


last guidance we received - says follow the commandments - so do we not follow the last guidance given - and if we do what commandments should we follow.

Also why did Jesus say the below – NOT everyone who says I believe in Jesus will be saved and mention ‘workers of lawlessness!’ - if anyone who believe would automatically be saved?

Matt 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

I tried to outline for you the confusions that arise when trying to intermix the things of Law (commandments) with that of grace, and where grace leads us through Holy Spirit in living by the Spirit rather than works of self effort. If you believe you're holding yourself on some tracks of salvation through self effort, then go for it. I've ignored nothing while answering your references by making the case for right division.

We who are under grace read and believe the moral absolutes taught within all of scripture. The difference is that we don't couple those things with salvation and its imaginary retention through self effort and boasting, as you are doing here. If you're comfortable with that, then go for it. I appreciate you having a heart for biblical morals, but I will not pat you on your back for boasting in your own strength of efforts in doing good, whatever that is. If that angers you, then perhaps this is worthy of further exploration on your part. If it doesn't anger you, then too, this is worthy of further exploration.

Matthew 10:6 — But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 — But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

To the astute student of scripture, this shows the need to differentiate between what was instructed toward Israel as opposed to the usual practice of some in subjectively transplanting whatever meets one's own fancy into this dispensation. I have grave doubts that you do as Jesus commanded the healed leper when telling him to go to the temple and offer up the animal sacrifice required of them at that time. I am Israeli, and yet I know what applies to us today as opposed to them at that time within that dispensation.

Paul defined what it means to live according to what is for us today, and that being by the Spirit rather than going to some code of conduct as some try to make their Bibles into as the definition of their religious lives. Everyone here has the freedom to chosen between living and walking by the Spirit of life and living by the letter that killeth.

MM
 
I tried to outline for you the confusions that arise when trying to intermix the things of Law (commandments) with that of grace, and where grace leads us through Holy Spirit in living by the Spirit rather than works of self effort.

Living by the spirit means putting to death the works of the flesh and doing the works of faith through the word and spirit. But the gnostics among us call works of faith, works of self effort, in order to try to establish their lawless grace in which a person is saved, not by walking righteously in the spirit through faith, but by their imagined spiritual nature that can never perish.
 
I tried to outline for you the confusions that arise when trying to intermix the things of Law (commandments) with that of grace, and where grace leads us through Holy Spirit in living by the Spirit rather than works of self effort. If you believe you're holding yourself on some tracks of salvation through self effort, then go for it. I've ignored nothing while answering your references by making the case for right division.

We who are under grace read and believe the moral absolutes taught within all of scripture. The difference is that we don't couple those things with salvation and its imaginary retention through self effort and boasting, as you are doing here. If you're comfortable with that, then go for it. I appreciate you having a heart for biblical morals, but I will not pat you on your back for boasting in your own strength of efforts in doing good, whatever that is. If that angers you, then perhaps this is worthy of further exploration on your part. If it doesn't anger you, then too, this is worthy of further exploration.

Matthew 10:6 — But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 — But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

To the astute student of scripture, this shows the need to differentiate between what was instructed toward Israel as opposed to the usual practice of some in subjectively transplanting whatever meets one's own fancy into this dispensation. I have grave doubts that you do as Jesus commanded the healed leper when telling him to go to the temple and offer up the animal sacrifice required of them at that time. I am Israeli, and yet I know what applies to us today as opposed to them at that time within that dispensation.

Paul defined what it means to live according to what is for us today, and that being by the Spirit rather than going to some code of conduct as some try to make their Bibles into as the definition of their religious lives. Everyone here has the freedom to chosen between living and walking by the Spirit of life and living by the letter that killeth.

MM

Again, you’re not replying to the narrow points im raising - what commandments does Revelations state and are they relevant or not?

I note your position – and I appreciate you’re trying to guide me – but I’m simply discussing Revelation which instructs us to KEEP the commandments
 
Again, you’re not replying to the narrow points im raising - what commandments does Revelations state and are they relevant or not?

I note your position – and I appreciate you’re trying to guide me – but I’m simply discussing Revelation which instructs us to KEEP the commandments

If you're talking about the book of Revelation, no. That does not apply to us. That is for Israel. In Matthew 24 where Jesus talks about their having to endure unto the end so that they SHALL (future tense) be saved, that clearly is not a reference to us since we will not be on this earth at that time.

Does that answer your question?

MM
 
If you're talking about the book of Revelation, no. That does not apply to us. That is for Israel. In Matthew 24 where Jesus talks about their having to endure unto the end so that they SHALL (future tense) be saved, that clearly is not a reference to us since we will not be on this earth at that time.

This guy's whole theology is built on the errors of some version of mid-Acts dispensationalism
 
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Thank you for all of your wisdom,

In Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19 they all were filled with the spirit and spoke in tongues.

So according to JESUS in John 3:5 and in Mark 16 17, Peter in Acts 2:33 they were born of the spirit.

SO IT IS THE RULE.

The question still stands, you not answering that question tells me you haven't.

You can if you like?
All believers are born of the Spirit, but not all who are filled with the Holy Spirit (in addition to receiving the Holy Spirit) speak in tongues in every case. Both John the Baptist and Elizabeth were said to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:15, 41) but scripture never says they spoke in tongues.

Elsewhere in scripture, we have others who were said to be filled with Holy Spirit but did not speak in tongues in those situations. (Luke 4:1; Acts 4:8, 31; 7:55; 13:9) Also, not all believers have hands laid on them before receiving the Holy Spirit so your pet verses are the EXCEPTION and NOT THE RULE. I have answered your question. You just don't like my answer because it does not fit your narrative.
 
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Then you have placed yourself under the curse of the Law. Additionally, it's not "faith alone." True believers are saved by grace THROUGH faith. They go hand in hand, precisely as scripture declares. Going back to the Kingdom teachings is a dead end roadway.

2 Timothy 2:15 — Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If you think you're saved and/or retain your salvation on the basis of the works of your effort in the flesh, then how do you know you're saved right now? What's the threshold of slavation loss, if you think it really exists? Where is it? Please define it for us all, from scripture, rather than personal belief. None of the salvation loss people in here have yet even attempted to tackle that definition...if it even existed. They avoid this question 'like the plague,' as the proverbial cliche' goes.

When they fail to rightly divide the word of truth, they are intermixing truths that do not mix rightly. In other words, that one must rightly divide the word of truth means that there are divisions in the truths of scripture. We ALL practice that division daily by NOT going out and sacrificing animals for our sins, but the salvation loss crowd fails to divide ALL the differing collections of truths into their rightful dispensations.

Yes, I realize there's a manic disike out there for the term "dispensation," but it's a valid, biblical concept and term in the Bible, in contrast to the false claim for salvation loss under the Gospel of Grace. The knee jerk reaction go-to is for them to yammer about those out there who allegedly live any ol' way they want, almost as if such people not only are living right next door to them, but is routine among those who believe in the Gospel of Grace. Those straw man arguments are old and worn out, being as bad as the falsehoods their false teaching pastors teach under whom they sit every week. What's worse is that their false teaching pastors teach all that crap with a straight face, and sometimes even with a sinister smile that sails over their heads on a weekly basis.

Please don't assume we condone no good works as the OUTFLOW of the salvation of which we enjoy the assurance. The salvation loss gang has no assurance for their salvation with them trying to live a gospel not intended for us today. They have no explanations for how they lose, regain, lose again, regain again, ad infinitum, their salvation on a daily basis given that we ALL sin daily.

Are YOU without sin? I'm not, which is true of us ALL. Are YOU losing your salvation in the midst of your sins? How? What's the threshold? What's the magic formula for getting it back after allegedly losing it? So many questions posed to the salvation lost gang, and they have no answers other than to remain hostile and antagonistic against all who are secure in the salvation of grace we have been given as a gift; even though we too believe in striving to do good works as well in order to store up treasure in Heaven, and to live and walk in spirit and in truth.

Their demonization of the Gospel of Grace only shows the demon within them, or under whose control they live and breath. Either way, their failures to show to us all that imaginary line for loss of THEIR salvation, if they ever had it, it all serves as a cumulative demonstration for just how weak their stand upon scripture really is in the midst of their foaming-at-the-mouth rhetoric.

What's your take on allnthis?

MM

So now it's grace THROUGH faith? Scripture is clear

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father.

It's only through God's grace that salvation is even available to us but the ones that get to heaven are the ones with faith completed by works.
 
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So now it's grace THROUGH faith? Scripture is clear

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father.

It's only through God's grace that salvation is even available to us but the ones that get to heaven are the ones with faith completed by works.

Yes...for those of Israel at that time who were under the ministry of James and the other eleven, that was indeed true for them. Please show to me where Paul ever built the Gospel of Grace upon the foundation of works, and I will show this to you:

Romans 11:6 — And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

MM
 
All believers are born of the Spirit, but not all who are filled with the Holy Spirit (in addition to receiving the Holy Spirit) speak in tongues in every case. Both John the Baptist and Elizabeth were said to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:15, 41) but scripture never says they spoke in tongues.

Elsewhere in scripture, we have others who were said to be filled with Holy Spirit but did not speak in tongues in those situations. (Luke 4:1; Acts 4:8, 31; 7:55; 13:9) Also, not all believers have hands laid on them before receiving the Holy Spirit so your pet verses are the EXCEPTION and NOT THE RULE. I have answered your question. You just don't like my answer because it does not fit your narrative.
I Don't know where this idea comes from all believers are born of spirit but not all are born of the holy spirit

I believe once your handed to the son from he father, the son sees his father's mercy in you and repentance is given ?
 
Yes...for those of Israel at that time who were under the ministry of James and the other eleven, that was indeed true for them. Please show to me where Paul ever built the Gospel of Grace upon the foundation of works, and I will shownthis to you:

Romans 11:6 — And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

MM

First you're suggesting some parts of Scripture apply to some people but not to others? Second that more attention should be paid to what Paul says than Jesus or anyone else in Scripture? Third

Romans 2:6-10

Whenever people feel compelled to tell me the words I read dont mean what they say, then I suspect I'm getting something extra-biblical
 
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All believers are born of the Spirit, but not all who are filled with the Holy Spirit (in addition to receiving the Holy Spirit) speak in tongues in every case. Both John the Baptist and Elizabeth were said to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:15, 41) but scripture never says they spoke in tongues.

Elsewhere in scripture, we have others who were said to be filled with Holy Spirit but did not speak in tongues in those situations. (Luke 4:1; Acts 4:8, 31; 7:55; 13:9) Also, not all believers have hands laid on them before receiving the Holy Spirit so your pet verses are the EXCEPTION and NOT THE RULE. I have answered your question. You just don't like my answer because it does not fit your narrative.

So you accept the fact that JESUS has not filled you, and it's not your fought, which does answer my question.

You can add JESUS to your list also.

So now the question is when did the first time someone spoke in tongues and who is it for?

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

NOT MAYBE, OR FOR SOME!!!

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

According to JESUS we need it to be reborn!!!

How do you know you have it?

How did Phillip know they DIDN'T IN ACTS 8??
 
I Don't know where this idea comes from all believers are born of spirit but not all are born of the holy spirit

I believe once your handed to the son from he father, the son sees his father's mercy in you and repentance is given ?

Its a real good idea to check out your thoughts with HIS word.

Satan still puts thoughts in my head, I have to repent daily.
 
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Its a real good idea to check out your thoughts with HIS word.

Satan still puts thoughts in my head, I have to repent daily.
you've totally lost me now ?

Let me reassure you that even when I don't cite scriptures in my reply directly, I'm always citing scripture.

And scripture clearly states repentance is given.

As for satan puting thoughts in your head to repent daily, are you being persecuted or something

It could be the reason your not accepting the answers ?
 
First you're suggesting some parts of Scripture apply to some people but not to others? Second that more attention should be paid to what Paul says than Jesus or anyone else in Scripture? Third

Romans 2:6-10

Whenever people feel compelled to tell me the words I read dont mean what they say, then I suspect I'm getting something extra-biblical

What do you say, then, to Jesus commanding the leper to offer up the Lawful sacrifice for his healing? You appear to be saying that the Law is still valid as a requirement upon us today if you lay claim to following all that was addressed to those peple at that time.

Please explain, then, what basis you go by in determining what's valid as a standing requirement upon all believers today and what are not. I have grave doubts you obey the Mosaic Law, but please do inform us all about your chosen criteria for what's included and what's excluded, and the basis thereof.

MM
 
you've totally lost me now ?

Let me reassure you that even when I don't cite scriptures in my reply directly, I'm always citing scripture.

And scripture clearly states repentance is given.

As for satan puting thoughts in your head to repent daily, are you being persecuted or something

It could be the reason your not accepting the answers ?

I'm sorry but you are not citing scripture, you can not back up this statement, it is no where in HIS word.

"I believe once your handed to the son from he father, the son sees his father's mercy in you and repentance is given ?"

Can you show me how that get rid of our sins?

You don't think Satan puts thoughts in people heads?

He want's me back, it's not persecrtion he want's likes sin and what's to keep us in it.

What answers? Show me in HIS word how we get rid of sins.

I don't accept men's opinion's as an answers as we all have one.

I'm sorry if I may seem rude, I have NO tack at all.
 
What do you say, then, to Jesus commanding the leper to offer up the Lawful sacrifice for his healing? You appear to be saying that the Law is still valid as a requirement upon us today if you lay claim to following all that was addressed to those peple at that time.

Please explain, then, what basis you go by in determining what's valid as a standing requirement upon all believers today and what are not. I have grave doubts you obey the Mosaic Law, but please do inform us all about your chosen criteria for what's included and what's excluded, and the basis thereof.

MM

You want answers from me before answering questions I posed to you first? I'm not sure how you generally deal with people but when you deal with me you don't get to unilaterally dictate the conversation. Answer my questions which I asked first the I'll answer yours.
 
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So you accept the fact that JESUS has not filled you, and it's not your fought, which does answer my question.

You can add JESUS to your list also.

So now the question is when did the first time someone spoke in tongues and who is it for?

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

NOT MAYBE, OR FOR SOME!!!

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

According to JESUS we need it to be reborn!!!

How do you know you have it?

How did Phillip know they DIDN'T IN ACTS 8??
I have answered your question. You simply remain confused.
 
What do you say, then, to Jesus commanding the leper to offer up the Lawful sacrifice for his healing? You appear to be saying that the Law is still valid as a requirement upon us today if you lay claim to following all that was addressed to those peple at that time.

It's hard for me to believe that people actually think like you do. What a world of confusion