Loss of salvation???

[Musicmaster]

This was addressed to Israel, and Israel alone from Jesus Himself, keeping in mind that ALL of scripture is inspired by this same Lord and Christ:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Keeping in mind what Jesus said:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Paul preached no requirement for water baptism, and yet there are those who claim Paul preached the same gospel for salvation while having not one verse to point at without corrupting the text with their injections, misrepresentations and corruptions of the texts; misrepresentations such as claiming that since Paul DID baptize a SMALL number of people, he never commanded that work as a requirement for salvation nor did he ever even hint at the idea that one could lose their salvation. Later, Paul even stated:

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Contrast that with John the Baptist:

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

We today are baptized with Holy Spirit at the point of bestowed grace through faith, period.

This shatters the claim that the baptism spoken of throughout much of the epistles was only a spiritual baptism. That renders Paul's words in 1 Cor. 1:17 as making no sense given that Paul COULD NOT be talking about spiritual baptism since he was never empowered to effect such a baptism that was done only by Holy Spirit, so all the false claims about meaning and key objects within the contexts addressed here, simply read scripture yourself for what is actually said; and those people's claims out there who are works-based salvationists and works-based retentionists, you will see them for what they are...people who believe what they WANT to believe regardless of what scripture teaches to the astute reader and learner of what scripture states in the clarity of its language.

MM

 

[studier]

What scripture? I very recently asked questions that you never once provided scripture WITH explanation as to how I was in error. All you've done is CLAIM I'm in error. That proves nothing in support of your claim.

MM

You don't see Scripture referenced in my post you're responding to here?

 

[Musicmaster]

You don't see Scripture referenced in my post you're responding to here?

Yes, and I said to you that pointing only to the context of 2 Tim. 2: 10-14 as if the context somehow modifies the key verse I quoted as saying something other than what is states is not credible. If you have something you'd like to point out more specifically and explain your rationale, then I'd love to read about it. Your words, please, not some commentary by someone else.

MM

 

[studier]

Obedient faith is not at all what I'm addressing. I never said that wasn't a good thing. I've stayed the course without wavering that obedience is not the basis for our salvation:

I agree, you've stayed the course [of error]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Adding to that obedience, no matter how good it may sound as a viable part of our salvation, that's EISEGESIS, not EXEGESIS.

Why can't you seem to get that?

I’m not ‘adding obedience to faith.’ Scripture itself treats belief and obedience with essential unity (1John3:23, et.al.).

For some reason you’ve ignored 1John3:23 every time I’ve posted it. Let’s start there, and once you engage that verse, I’ll add others to back up my reasoning.

If I were adding something to faith that Scripture doesn’t place there, that would be eisegesis. But if you’re subtracting from faith what Scripture does place there, that is also eisegesis.

Rather than chase the rest of your post, which is again full of flawed reasoning, let’s see if you can finally stick with Scripture. 1John3:23 would be a good start. Chasing you in circles is concluded.

 

[studier]

Yes, and I said to you that pointing only to the context of 2 Tim. 2: 10-14 as if the context somehow modifies the key verse I quoted as saying something other than what is states is not credible. If you have something you'd like to point out more specifically and explain your rationale, then I'd love to read about it. Your words, please, not some commentary by someone else.

MM

You're really quite evasive to say the least. My last post #4,284 deals with one of the verses you've again ignored here.

As for 2Tim2 I'm not moving outward to supposed proof-texts until you deal with the actual language and grammatical structure of 2Tim2:11-13 I provided and have repeated. Explain to me why you think 2Tim2:12b is isolated from 2Tim2:11-12a, and why you think you can insert OSAS into 2Tim2:13. Please do so without using any outside proof-texting to insert your theology.

To be fair, I did reference Jesus re: denial in Matt10:33 which was included in your Thayer's reference.

I've also asked you to explain how you think Thayer's supports you because I think you've eisegeted Thayer's as you've eisegeted Paul.

 

[studier]

and now we get to see the 2 gospel theory...

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

and now we get to see the 2 gospel theory...

Or, the Biblical Fact, eh?:

I have decided to follow Jesus?
+
Agreement With The Gospel?

Amen.

 

[Musicmaster]

I agree, you've stayed the course [of error]



I’m not ‘adding obedience to faith.’ Scripture itself treats belief and obedience with essential unity (1John3:23, et.al.).

For some reason you’ve ignored 1John3:23 every time I’ve posted it. Let’s start there, and once you engage that verse, I’ll add others to back up my reasoning.

If I were adding something to faith that Scripture doesn’t place there, that would be eisegesis. But if you’re subtracting from faith what Scripture does place there, that is also eisegesis.

Rather than chase the rest of your post, which is again full of flawed reasoning, let’s see if you can finally stick with Scripture. 1John3:23 would be a good start. Chasing you in circles is concluded.

Let's get the context here while rightly dividing the word of truth as we are instructed to do. Also, lets keep in mind to whom John wrote so that the context is more clear. I added what is in brackets to emphasize the audience to whom he was speaking:

1 John 3:18-23
18 My little children [Israel is the intended audience], let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. [love is the key operator here]
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments [the Law, the prophets and the commands of Christ], and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

There is so much in this context to discuss, but you want to focus on 23. Ok. I will agree that the treasures of good things written to Israel are of value to the body of Christ today, to whom John was not the minister nor the builder. Jesus sent Paul to build the body of Christ in this world, and those who would serve with him and beyond to this very day. So, what's your point about verse 23?

Loving one another is a part of our sanctifying growth nurtured and empowered by Holy Spirit more effectively than what was written to others in another dispensation. I love you and all others here. I don't need John's words more than what I already have with Holy Spirit within Who confirms what is for us today in how we should live before Him. Johns words to Israel are of value, I will not deny that. They confirm what was already within me. I'm Israeli and grew up trying to live the commandments, but always failed and experienced the condemnations that resulted because the letter killeth, but the Spirit is life. It is the Spirit within who lives His life through us. The commandments are holy and righteous, but I don't look to the words. I look to the Spirit.

So, please elaborate your point in all this.

MM

 

[studier]

Or, the Biblical Fact, eh?:

I have decided to follow Jesus?
+
Agreement With The Gospel?

Amen.

Isn't everyone here posting 'Biblical Fact'?

 

[Musicmaster]

and now we get to see the 2 gospel theory...

Then disprove it if you can in spite of the differences in some of the elements. Can you do that, or will you continue rhetorical denials?

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

1 John 3:18-23
18 My little children [Israel is the intended audience],

Claim made in lieu of evidence. Paul ministered to both Jew and gentile and John ministered among gentiles in Ehphesus.

 

[studier]

There is so much in this context to discuss, but you want to focus on 23. Ok. I will agree that the treasures of good things written to Israel are of value to the body of Christ today, to whom John was not the minister nor the builder. Jesus sent Paul to build the body of Christ in this world, and those who would serve with him and beyond to this very day. So, what's your point about verse 23?

Now I see why you're launching into your 2 gospel diatribe.

So, your wordy setup is basically saying we can reject John if we like and must go to Paul? If we get there, I’ll be going to Paul as well, to show how he affirms what John says. I assume you agree that Jesus and the Spirit are truly the basis of Scripture, correct?

Here’s the verse I’m asking about that tells us something about believing. Is believing commanded?

1John3:23 – “And this is His commandment: that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and that we love one another, as He gave us commandment.”​

 

[studier]

Then disprove it if you can in spite of the differences in some of the elements. Can you do that, or will you continue rhetorical denials?

MM

I've been through this with you in the past. Not interested.

It's another distraction to what we're doing, though I am expecting you to make it front and center to your OSAS false-binary.

 

[Musicmaster]

Now I see why you're launching into your 2 gospel diatribe.

So, your wordy setup is basically saying we can reject John if we like and must go to Paul? If we get there, I’ll be going to Paul as well, to show how he affirms what John says. I assume you agree that Jesus and the Spirit are truly the basis of Scripture, correct?

Here’s the verse I’m asking about that tells us something about believing. Is believing commanded?

1John3:23 – “And this is His commandment: that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and that we love one another, as He gave us commandment.”​

Dispensing with the negative labeling (diatribe, etc.), yes, of course John told Israel that they must believe. Yes. Where that is a good thing, it doesn't stand out as anything remarkably supportive for losing salvation dare one traipse into unbelief. John did not preach to Gentiles...oh, wait, he was not the apostle to the Gentiles, and so not everything John wrote applies to Gentiles. John also commanded Israel to continue in obedience to the Law, which is the Commandments of God:

1 John 5:1-3
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I suspect you may try to claim those are only the commands of Christ, but the believing Jews weren't on that page with you:

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

There were/are believing Jews at that time, and today, who were/are in Christ Jesus AND were/are ALL zealous of the Law...the Mosaic Law. Many a Gentile I've spoken with through the years find this seemingly counter-intuitive to their experience as Gentiles never raised in our culture, but it is what it is. I too was of that stripe, but no more.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I've been through this with you in the past. Not interested.

It's another distraction to what we're doing, though I am expecting you to make it front and center to your OSAS false-binary.

Yes, I'd avoid it too if I were you because your case had, and has, nothing of substance behind it besides mere claims without going into those relevant texts. The difference is glaringly obvious, so best to leave this one alone. I agree.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

It has always been our understanding, as Jews, that we MUST endure in our efforts for obedience to remain in God's graces, which goes hand-in-hand with being in the Kingdom. It's in our very fiber, always has been. Gentiles who think they understand us, think again. This isn't an appeal made only for the purpose to discredit all that Gentiles believe so long as they believe only what's written rather than taught to them by their false teaching pastors and Sunday school teachers, etc. The Kingdom Gospel resonates with the ethic of obedience and endurance, and will once again pick back up in the tribulation outside of grace just as it was before Israel fell.

MM

 

[Kroogz]

This was addressed to Israel, and Israel alone from Jesus Himself, keeping in mind that ALL of scripture is inspired by this same Lord and Christ:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Keeping in mind what Jesus said:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Paul preached no requirement for water baptism, and yet there are those who claim Paul preached the same gospel for salvation while having not one verse to point at without corrupting the text with their injections, misrepresentations and corruptions of the texts; misrepresentations such as claiming that since Paul DID baptize a SMALL number of people, he never commanded that work as a requirement for salvation nor did he ever even hint at the idea that one could lose their salvation. Later, Paul even stated:

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Contrast that with John the Baptist:

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

We today are baptized with Holy Spirit at the point of bestowed grace through faith, period.

This shatters the claim that the baptism spoken of throughout much of the epistles was only a spiritual baptism. That renders Paul's words in 1 Cor. 1:17 as making no sense given that Paul COULD NOT be talking about spiritual baptism since he was never empowered to effect such a baptism that was done only by Holy Spirit, so all the false claims about meaning and key objects within the contexts addressed here, simply read scripture yourself for what is actually said; and those people's claims out there who are works-based salvationists and works-based retentionists, you will see them for what they are...people who believe what they WANT to believe regardless of what scripture teaches to the astute reader and learner of what scripture states in the clarity of its language.

MM

It is faith alone in Christ alone from the fall.

The Jews/lost sheep were PHD level in "religion" they knew what baptism signified. IDENTITY.

The gentiles were clueless.

Communion for the Church(teaching). Baptism for the Jews.(teaching)

Faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.....Always.

 

[Musicmaster]

It is faith alone in Christ alone from the fall.

The Jews/lost sheep were PHD level in "religion" they knew what baptism signified. IDENTITY.

The gentiles were clueless.

Communion for the Church(teaching). Baptism for the Jews.(teaching)

Faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.....Always.

Thanks, Kroogz.

Something I do try to keep in view is the extremely strong inclination within our flesh in wanting to DO something. Satanic forces use that to amazing effect. That's the root cause for the existence of mere religion of all sorts. That drive literally blinds some to the simplicity in Christ and the sufficiency in the Blood of Christ. I can't help but to have compassion for them.

MM

 

[Needevidence]

I don’t believe my point was understood.

We have 2 options as I understand it;

1) doesn’t matter what we do murder, rob etc.... as long as we believe we are saved - we may have an earthly problem get arrested etc... if we get caught - but otherwise we Ar still going to be saved – doesn’t matter how evil you may be as long as you believe

2) which I believe to be the correct approach - we have to keep the commandments (some may have been abrogated), with that, you receive grace, guidance and your faith becomes stronger.

The last revelations given to us Jesus was clear those who keep the commandments & faith (believe in Jesus) & it’s clear until the 'End of times' (heaven and earth pass away)


for ease of reference the passages I previously quoted;

Matt 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfil them.

(Until end of time) – Matt 5:18 - For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Rev 12:17 - And the dragon was enraged at the woman and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.

Rev 14:12 - Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

One should also remember Jesus said (clearly not all who believe in Jesus will be saved)

Matt 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

 

[Musicmaster]

I don’t believe my point was understood.

We have 2 options as I understand it;

1) doesn’t matter what we do murder, rob etc.... as long as we believe we are saved - we may have an earthly problem get arrested etc... if we get caught - but otherwise we Ar still going to be saved – doesn’t matter how evil you may be as long as you believe

2) which I believe to be the correct approach - we have to keep the commandments (some may have been abrogated), with that, you receive grace, guidance and your faith becomes stronger.

The last revelations given to us Jesus was clear those who keep the commandments & faith (believe in Jesus) & it’s clear until the 'End of times' (heaven and earth pass away)


for ease of reference the passages I previously quoted;

Matt 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfil them.

(Until end of time) – Matt 5:18 - For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Rev 12:17 - And the dragon was enraged at the woman and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.

Rev 14:12 - Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

One should also remember Jesus said (clearly not all who believe in Jesus will be saved)

Matt 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Perhaps I'm not understanding your take on all this.

Are you saying that your hypotheticals are cause for doubts in the sufficiency in the Blood of Christ...that the time location of the hypothetical sins you mentioned create some sort of crisis in that sufficiency in His Blood? Who have you ever known to do such extreme sin after truly being saved? How do you prove that someone of that small grouping are not saved any longer? How do you prove that such a person becomes unsealed, which would be a matter of the Lord forfeiting His own Spirit?

This is fascinating.

Now, I do agree with you that doing all the good works we can is indeed good, but drawing a line of connection between good works and salvation for cause and effect, that makes salvation a matter of being additionally rooted in works in connection with the Blood of Christ rather then only upon the completed redemption in the Blood of Christ in His death, burial and resurrection on the third day.

Please explain.

MM