The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

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Real reason: the natural man hates the things of GOD. which is why what is reveled in Revelation is coming.

uh huh. A believer in Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit is no longer a 'natural' anything. Perhaps consult those scriptures you are spinning so hard.

1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.
John 14

6Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God,a which He destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9Rather, as it is written:

“No eye has seen,

no ear has heard,

no heart has imagined,

what God has prepared for those who love Him.”b

10But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit.

I Cor. 2

Of course if a person is of the belief that God no longer speaks, or the Holy Spirit is in hiding or Jesus was not truthful, well then it can be seen that scraping the Bible for things that make sense to those so inclined can really get out of hand
 
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@GWH @Inquisitor @pinebeach

This is what the bible teaches us on how to deal with people who refuse he truth of scripture, promote false doctrine contrary to God's words and prefer the darkness to the light

When someone continually denies the truth and will not try to understand, the Bible both warns us and gives us a clear way to act. It shows a careful balance: we must love and pray for the person, we must speak the truth to them, and we must protect the flock when someone refuses to listen. The Bible does not say to ignore them without effort. It also does not say to keep forcing truth at any cost. Jesus and the apostles teach patience, clear confrontation, private warning, public steps when needed, and leaving the stubborn to their choice while still praying for them.I have done all of the above for you but will not force the truth if you refuse it.

Jesus taught how to correct a brother who sins: first go to him privately, and show him his fault; if he will not hear, bring one or two more; and if he still refuses, tell it to the church and treat him as a stranger. This is the small, careful process Jesus gave to protect love and give chance after chance for repentance (see Matthew 18:15–17 NKJV). Me and othere on this forum have indeed brough to you the truth of scripture but it was agrued and denied at every occasion. Jesus also warned that some hearts will close. He told his disciples not to force truth where it is utterly rejected. He said, for example, to shake the dust off your feet and move on when a town will not receive you (Matthew 10:14 NKJV). That is not callousness. It is a recognition that persistent refusal after clear witness is a settled choice. A choice that God puts before us all. At the same time Jesus commanded us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us (Matthew 5:44 NKJV). So even when we step away, we continue to pray. Therefore I will continue to pray for you.

Luke records Jesus’ practical rule about personal rebuke and forgiveness: “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him” (Luke 17:3–4 NKJV). The pattern is simple: rebuke with the aim of restoration, and forgive if repentance comes. Restoration is always the goal. Harsh punishment and public shame are not the first step. The priority is to bring the person back to truth through patient, loving correction. I have tried to do this often but with no effect.

The apostles and the early church put this into practice. When Stephen faced a crowd that would not accept the truth, he prayed for them as he died: “Lord, do not charge them with this sin” (Acts 7:60 NKJV). Stephen’s example shows prayer and mercy even toward those who reject truth to the point of killing the messenger. The leaders of the church also acted to protect the community when people were unrepentant. A faithful watchman must warn, teach, and protect the vulnerable (see Ezekiel 33:8–9 NKJV). If a watchman does not warn, he is held responsible. But when warning is given and a person persists, the church may remove that person’s influence to stop harm.
The Old Testament gives wise warnings about how to handle the stubborn. Proverbs shows two needed truths that look like opposites but both matter. One proverb says do not correct a scoffer, or he will hate you (Proverbs 9:8–9 NKJV). Another says answer a fool according to his folly when needed (Proverbs 26:4–5 NKJV). The point is this: wisdom knows when words will help and when words only make things worse. A person who refuses truth in order to mock or destroy will not be helped by constant argument. But a person who is confused or sincerely blind may be reached by patient explanation. Discernment is required. In this case on this thread I continue because I need to protect people reading this thread from YOU who contradict scripture with your false doctrines, know also that my warnings to you will continue with the truth from scripture as always.

What practical steps follow from these teachings? First, speak the truth gently and privately. Give clear, plain reasons and tender warning. Second, if the person refuses, call one or two others to help and confirm the matter. Third, if still unrepentant, bring it to the assembled church so the community can pray, warn, and protect its members. Fourth, if the person remains hardened, remove their influence and treat them as an unbeliever for the sake of the flock, while still praying for their repentance. Throughout, keep a heart of love. Do not turn correction into hatred. Do not let zeal for truth become cruelty. At this point I am thinking of going to the administration because you continually attack scripture and promote false doctrine in such a way that people could lose their salvation because of you, this is serious indeed. Saying we do not have to follow the Commandments God gave and that our Lord and savior Jesus asked us to keep is attacking the word of God Directly.

What does the Bible say about the final end of those who refuse truth? Jesus warned that words carry judgment. He said that people will be judged by the words they heard and refused (see John 12:48 NKJV). That is a sober truth: persistent refusal is a serious matter before God. But judgment belongs to God. Our role is to witness, warn, love, and, if necessary, withdraw to keep the church faithful.
How should we act personally toward such people? Pray without ceasing for them. Pray that God would open their hearts, remove blindness, and give repentance. Keep speaking truth when there are openings, but do not be trapped in endless argument that only hardens hearts. Show kindness in deed and word, because love still has power. Do not flatter or compromise the truth to keep peace. Be honest, patient, and gentle.

Finally, remember that forgiveness and restoration are always possible. The Bible calls us to hope for the one who refuses. Peter taught that we must restore a brother gently when he turns back (see Luke 17:3–4 and the restoration tone in the apostles’ practice). Stephen’s prayer and Jesus’ command to pray for enemies keep us from bitterness. At the same time, God’s justice and holiness mean that persistent, willful rejection of truth is dangerous. We must not pretend that refusal is harmless.

If you do not change, your words will condemn you, remember that is is by the words Jesus spoke to us through scripture that we shall be Judged.
 
With God's HS in one's heart, it is possible to eliminate all sins, though it takes an earthly lifetime of learning GW.

Spot on for the lack of truth in this thread. Another effort will surely manage what no one has done before. Up up and away
 
@GWH @Inquisitor @pinebeach

This is what the bible teaches us on how to deal with people who refuse he truth of scripture, promote false doctrine contrary to God's words and prefer the darkness to the light

When someone continually denies the truth and will not try to understand, the Bible both warns us and gives us a clear way to act. It shows a careful balance: we must love and pray for the person, we must speak the truth to them, and we must protect the flock when someone refuses to listen. The Bible does not say to ignore them without effort. It also does not say to keep forcing truth at any cost. Jesus and the apostles teach patience, clear confrontation, private warning, public steps when needed, and leaving the stubborn to their choice while still praying for them.I have done all of the above for you but will not force the truth if you refuse it.

Jesus taught how to correct a brother who sins: first go to him privately, and show him his fault; if he will not hear, bring one or two more; and if he still refuses, tell it to the church and treat him as a stranger. This is the small, careful process Jesus gave to protect love and give chance after chance for repentance (see Matthew 18:15–17 NKJV). Me and othere on this forum have indeed brough to you the truth of scripture but it was agrued and denied at every occasion. Jesus also warned that some hearts will close. He told his disciples not to force truth where it is utterly rejected. He said, for example, to shake the dust off your feet and move on when a town will not receive you (Matthew 10:14 NKJV). That is not callousness. It is a recognition that persistent refusal after clear witness is a settled choice. A choice that God puts before us all. At the same time Jesus commanded us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us (Matthew 5:44 NKJV). So even when we step away, we continue to pray. Therefore I will continue to pray for you.

Luke records Jesus’ practical rule about personal rebuke and forgiveness: “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him” (Luke 17:3–4 NKJV). The pattern is simple: rebuke with the aim of restoration, and forgive if repentance comes. Restoration is always the goal. Harsh punishment and public shame are not the first step. The priority is to bring the person back to truth through patient, loving correction. I have tried to do this often but with no effect.

The apostles and the early church put this into practice. When Stephen faced a crowd that would not accept the truth, he prayed for them as he died: “Lord, do not charge them with this sin” (Acts 7:60 NKJV). Stephen’s example shows prayer and mercy even toward those who reject truth to the point of killing the messenger. The leaders of the church also acted to protect the community when people were unrepentant. A faithful watchman must warn, teach, and protect the vulnerable (see Ezekiel 33:8–9 NKJV). If a watchman does not warn, he is held responsible. But when warning is given and a person persists, the church may remove that person’s influence to stop harm.
The Old Testament gives wise warnings about how to handle the stubborn. Proverbs shows two needed truths that look like opposites but both matter. One proverb says do not correct a scoffer, or he will hate you (Proverbs 9:8–9 NKJV). Another says answer a fool according to his folly when needed (Proverbs 26:4–5 NKJV). The point is this: wisdom knows when words will help and when words only make things worse. A person who refuses truth in order to mock or destroy will not be helped by constant argument. But a person who is confused or sincerely blind may be reached by patient explanation. Discernment is required. In this case on this thread I continue because I need to protect people reading this thread from YOU who contradict scripture with your false doctrines, know also that my warnings to you will continue with the truth from scripture as always.

What practical steps follow from these teachings? First, speak the truth gently and privately. Give clear, plain reasons and tender warning. Second, if the person refuses, call one or two others to help and confirm the matter. Third, if still unrepentant, bring it to the assembled church so the community can pray, warn, and protect its members. Fourth, if the person remains hardened, remove their influence and treat them as an unbeliever for the sake of the flock, while still praying for their repentance. Throughout, keep a heart of love. Do not turn correction into hatred. Do not let zeal for truth become cruelty. At this point I am thinking of going to the administration because you continually attack scripture and promote false doctrine in such a way that people could lose their salvation because of you, this is serious indeed. Saying we do not have to follow the Commandments God gave and that our Lord and savior Jesus asked us to keep is attacking the word of God Directly.

What does the Bible say about the final end of those who refuse truth? Jesus warned that words carry judgment. He said that people will be judged by the words they heard and refused (see John 12:48 NKJV). That is a sober truth: persistent refusal is a serious matter before God. But judgment belongs to God. Our role is to witness, warn, love, and, if necessary, withdraw to keep the church faithful.
How should we act personally toward such people? Pray without ceasing for them. Pray that God would open their hearts, remove blindness, and give repentance. Keep speaking truth when there are openings, but do not be trapped in endless argument that only hardens hearts. Show kindness in deed and word, because love still has power. Do not flatter or compromise the truth to keep peace. Be honest, patient, and gentle.

Finally, remember that forgiveness and restoration are always possible. The Bible calls us to hope for the one who refuses. Peter taught that we must restore a brother gently when he turns back (see Luke 17:3–4 and the restoration tone in the apostles’ practice). Stephen’s prayer and Jesus’ command to pray for enemies keep us from bitterness. At the same time, God’s justice and holiness mean that persistent, willful rejection of truth is dangerous. We must not pretend that refusal is harmless.

If you do not change, your words will condemn you, remember that is is by the words Jesus spoke to us through scripture that we shall be Judged.


Well, at least you seem to know what you have to look forward to.
 
you did not read it, but you should you replied less than a minute after I posted it.

You don't know that. I actually do read things sometimes before I sign in. Were you holding your breath waiting for me? Are you are of the belief you are somehow omnipresent? smh

You are not important as far as being able to post what is actually true so ...
 
Saying we do not have to follow the Commandments God gave and that our Lord and savior Jesus asked us to keep is attacking the word of God Directly.

The problem in this thread is the fact that certain participators keep repeating the same offensive thngs that are not true of what has been said here.

Where has anyone here said we can ignore the 10 commandments? The incorrect and unbiblical idea that the 10 commandments play a part in salvation other than through Jesus, is the constant and unfortunate cry of the op but this had been addressed multiple times but the op refuses...REFUSES...to acknowledge that as it disarms his claims and turns the actual problem back on him.

The actual covenant that we have is through the blood of Christ. The op will not address that because it refutes his commandment claims. He attempts to judge myself and 2 other contributors in this thread with scripture that is cherry picked by him but in the end, those same scriptures actually reveal his own shortcomings.

How can someone claim the commandments are the covenant when Jesus Himself said this at the 'Last Supper':

27Then He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in My Father’s kingdom.” Matthew 26

This op is not based on scripture. It is based on the belief that the 10 commandments are the covenant and not the blood of Christ.

How much plainer does it need to be made that the op has erred gravely in what he says and continues to harrass those who point out the truth that the Bible disagrees with him.
 
My comment:
First: show the scriptures stating our reward is living in heaven or that any one will go to heaven, in 60 years of study I never found any!
Everything I read states our reward is eternal life.
Next, when Jesus Christ returns to rule earth with :The rod of Iron" He will cause the entire world to Keep HIS Sabbath's".
Isaiah 66
23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh ----- come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
That's ALL flesh on earth,, after His return.
Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
When has Egypt ever kept the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem?
If during the 1000 years Christ IS KING over the whole earth, the 7th day Sabbath and the seven Holy Feasts of God are mandatory, and during Christ 33 1/2 year and during the time of the 13 Apostles they were kept: please explain why they are not to be kept today?
Real reason: the natural man hates the things of GOD. which is why what is reveled in Revelation is coming.

I encourage you to read the NT, which teaches our reward is eternal life in heaven.
 
Here just for example, are 2 posts I made to contradict the attempts of some to say that myself and others are saying we can just dismiss the commandments. No one has such a thing. Yet false claims continue, especially by the op.

Post 492 pinebeach, post: 5636017, member: 343456"]The law does not have authority over those in Christ. Do not take the opportunity now and say that means I think I can sin because no one has said that.

If you believe you can now obey the commandments, then you are in contradiction to scripture. The commandments are not for you to obey because you cannot. The Bible states that if you break any part of them you are guilty of ALL of them. This is serious. You have said things about me in some of your posts that are not true such as I believe I am free to sin. That is bearing false witness. I'm not judging you. You judge yourself when you do the things you say we must not do.

So, we are right back to Jesus. His blood is the Covenant we now have. The op is a lie; the commandments are not the covenant.


Post 466 pinebeach, post: 5635889, member: 343456"]Jesus is the end of the law. We do not believe we can now sin. If someone says that, they are lying because it has been said multiple of multiple times in this thread and others, that no one believes that. As a believer, if we have actually become a believer because some just do lip service, we now desire to please God and as such, we DO NOT WISH TO COMMIT SIN.

Stop your false posts in which you state we are sinning. TMS even said that if we do not observe the 'Sabbath', then we are sinning and breaking the law.
 
The law, which in this thread, is being referred to specifically as tehe 10 commandments, was given to ancient Israel. It has not ever or was never intended, to be a part of salvation through Christ. The New Testament is called NEW because it does away with the OLD.
NONE of the laws given to Israel are binding on Christians today. When Jesus died and rose again, the law became null and void for all who accept Jesus as God's 'final solution' to our sin problem.

In Romans 10:4, the apostle Paul writes, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (ESV). The Greek word translated as “end” means “aim or purpose.” Christ is the aim and purpose of the law not because He abolished it but because He fulfilled it: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5:17, ESV). By fulfilling the law, Christ guarantees the imputation of His righteousness to everyone who believes.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, Gal. 3: 23-25

Christians are under the the law of Christ. Gal. 6:2 2 Bear one another 's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

This law is expressed in John 13:34, where Jesus says, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another” (ESV). The law of Christ is not a set of legalistic rules but a principle of love that governs the life of a believer.

Much more to be said; all of it directly from scripture.
 
I encourage you to read the NT, which teaches our reward is eternal life in heaven.

My Comments:

I have studied both the Old and the New testaments for almost 60 years, Plus, I have been taught by the best of the best. and have never found one scripture stating any will go to the third heaven.. Even if that were true, what is God's purpose for us in heaven? are we to just roll around heaven all day?

Jesus Christ states we will assist Him in ruling earth for 1000 years.

Revelation 5
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And Hebrews 11 states all have died awaiting the resurrection. no one is in heaven.

3 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

here is another translation
GWT 39All these people were known for their faith, but none of them received what God had promised.
40God planned to give us something very special so that we would gain eternal life with them. Please is this not a wonderful place to say ( We will go to heaven with them )?

Every person of God from Old Testament times are dead.

In every scripture I read, explaining what we have been promised -- none, not one, ever says heaven is our reward. again if it were, why are we not at least told what the purpose is?
 
My Comments:
I have studied both the Old and the New testaments for almost 60 years, Plus, I have been taught by the best of the best. and have never found one scripture stating any will go to the third heaven.. Even if that were true, what is God's purpose for us in heaven? are we to just roll around heaven all day?
Jesus Christ states we will assist Him in ruling earth for 1000 years.
Revelation 5
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
And Hebrews 11 states all have died awaiting the resurrection. no one is in heaven.
3 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
here is another translation
GWT 39All these people were known for their faith, but none of them received what God had promised.
40God planned to give us something very special so that we would gain eternal life with them. Please is this not a wonderful place to say ( We will go to heaven with them )?
Every person of God from Old Testament times are dead.
In every scripture I read, explaining what we have been promised -- none, not one, ever says heaven is our reward. again if it were, why are we not at least told what the purpose is?

I could not tell you knew anything about the NT from your previous post, but now my question is this:
If you are familiar with all of the dozens of NT references, why do you omit all by Jesus and Paul?
Do you have a problem with going to heaven? Do you think it is our punishment?!
Do you have a problem with the new creation being described as a new heaven and earth?
I doubt it will be boring just because there will be no more sin.
 
@GWH @Inquisitor @pinebeach

This is what the bible teaches us on how to deal with people who refuse he truth of scripture, promote false doctrine contrary to God's words and prefer the darkness to the light

When someone continually denies the truth and will not try to understand, the Bible both warns us and gives us a clear way to act. It shows a careful balance: we must love and pray for the person, we must speak the truth to them, and we must protect the flock when someone refuses to listen. The Bible does not say to ignore them without effort. It also does not say to keep forcing truth at any cost. Jesus and the apostles teach patience, clear confrontation, private warning, public steps when needed, and leaving the stubborn to their choice while still praying for them.I have done all of the above for you but will not force the truth if you refuse it.

Jesus taught how to correct a brother who sins: first go to him privately, and show him his fault; if he will not hear, bring one or two more; and if he still refuses, tell it to the church and treat him as a stranger. This is the small, careful process Jesus gave to protect love and give chance after chance for repentance (see Matthew 18:15–17 NKJV). Me and othere on this forum have indeed brough to you the truth of scripture but it was agrued and denied at every occasion. Jesus also warned that some hearts will close. He told his disciples not to force truth where it is utterly rejected. He said, for example, to shake the dust off your feet and move on when a town will not receive you (Matthew 10:14 NKJV). That is not callousness. It is a recognition that persistent refusal after clear witness is a settled choice. A choice that God puts before us all. At the same time Jesus commanded us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us (Matthew 5:44 NKJV). So even when we step away, we continue to pray. Therefore I will continue to pray for you.

Luke records Jesus’ practical rule about personal rebuke and forgiveness: “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him” (Luke 17:3–4 NKJV). The pattern is simple: rebuke with the aim of restoration, and forgive if repentance comes. Restoration is always the goal. Harsh punishment and public shame are not the first step. The priority is to bring the person back to truth through patient, loving correction. I have tried to do this often but with no effect.

The apostles and the early church put this into practice. When Stephen faced a crowd that would not accept the truth, he prayed for them as he died: “Lord, do not charge them with this sin” (Acts 7:60 NKJV). Stephen’s example shows prayer and mercy even toward those who reject truth to the point of killing the messenger. The leaders of the church also acted to protect the community when people were unrepentant. A faithful watchman must warn, teach, and protect the vulnerable (see Ezekiel 33:8–9 NKJV). If a watchman does not warn, he is held responsible. But when warning is given and a person persists, the church may remove that person’s influence to stop harm.
The Old Testament gives wise warnings about how to handle the stubborn. Proverbs shows two needed truths that look like opposites but both matter. One proverb says do not correct a scoffer, or he will hate you (Proverbs 9:8–9 NKJV). Another says answer a fool according to his folly when needed (Proverbs 26:4–5 NKJV). The point is this: wisdom knows when words will help and when words only make things worse. A person who refuses truth in order to mock or destroy will not be helped by constant argument. But a person who is confused or sincerely blind may be reached by patient explanation. Discernment is required. In this case on this thread I continue because I need to protect people reading this thread from YOU who contradict scripture with your false doctrines, know also that my warnings to you will continue with the truth from scripture as always.

What practical steps follow from these teachings? First, speak the truth gently and privately. Give clear, plain reasons and tender warning. Second, if the person refuses, call one or two others to help and confirm the matter. Third, if still unrepentant, bring it to the assembled church so the community can pray, warn, and protect its members. Fourth, if the person remains hardened, remove their influence and treat them as an unbeliever for the sake of the flock, while still praying for their repentance. Throughout, keep a heart of love. Do not turn correction into hatred. Do not let zeal for truth become cruelty. At this point I am thinking of going to the administration because you continually attack scripture and promote false doctrine in such a way that people could lose their salvation because of you, this is serious indeed. Saying we do not have to follow the Commandments God gave and that our Lord and savior Jesus asked us to keep is attacking the word of God Directly.

What does the Bible say about the final end of those who refuse truth? Jesus warned that words carry judgment. He said that people will be judged by the words they heard and refused (see John 12:48 NKJV). That is a sober truth: persistent refusal is a serious matter before God. But judgment belongs to God. Our role is to witness, warn, love, and, if necessary, withdraw to keep the church faithful.
How should we act personally toward such people? Pray without ceasing for them. Pray that God would open their hearts, remove blindness, and give repentance. Keep speaking truth when there are openings, but do not be trapped in endless argument that only hardens hearts. Show kindness in deed and word, because love still has power. Do not flatter or compromise the truth to keep peace. Be honest, patient, and gentle.

Finally, remember that forgiveness and restoration are always possible. The Bible calls us to hope for the one who refuses. Peter taught that we must restore a brother gently when he turns back (see Luke 17:3–4 and the restoration tone in the apostles’ practice). Stephen’s prayer and Jesus’ command to pray for enemies keep us from bitterness. At the same time, God’s justice and holiness mean that persistent, willful rejection of truth is dangerous. We must not pretend that refusal is harmless.

If you do not change, your words will condemn you, remember that is is by the words Jesus spoke to us through scripture that we shall be Judged.

You are on a Christian chat site.

You are to obey the rules of this site and not condemn other Christians.

You are in a miniscule minority of the Christian world and many reject your interpretation outright.

In your doctrine; you respect the prophetic authority of one girl named Ellen White, what happens if she was wrong?

In your doctrine you believe in the imminent return of Jesus Christ. You ignore the fact that the scripture never
teaches the imminent return of Jesus. Even Jesus taught that events must occur before He returns. You
cannot debate the imminent return of Jesus, because the NT enforces that some events must occur before
He returns. Try reading the book of Revelation as the book of Revelation is over flowing with events. That
occur before the Lord returns?????????
 
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You state half of the main point, which is that all souls are sinners because of disobeying God's OT moral will/laws.
The other half is that all sinners may be saved/made righteous by obeying God's NT will to accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord.
This righteousness in Christ is credited at the moment of conversion, becomes actual as saints learn to reflect the HS's love,
and will be perfected when we are resurrected to heaven. Hallelujah! :love:

There is a problem with the idea that the ten words given to covenant Israel, are binding
on the Gentile nations.

The question I asked AI.

Where did the idea that the law of Mt Sinai become divided into the ten commandments and and the ceremonial law? The Catholic Church states the ten are binding on Christians. The Reformers and Protestants believe the law is divided into commandments and ceremonial. A further division in the law is moral and ceremonial. I see the law as only given to Israel and not to the Gentiles. The ceremonial law contains moral law.

AI replied.

Below is a concise, historically grounded explanation of where the idea of dividing the Law of Moses arose, how it developed in Judaism, the early Church, the Catholic tradition, and the Protestant Reformers, and how to situate your own view within those trajectories.
1. Judaism did not divide the Law into “moral vs. ceremonial”
In ancient Judaism, the Torah was one unified covenant, given specifically to Israel.
Jewish sources treat the 613 commandments as a single, indivisible law, even though rabbinic writers do sometimes distinguish between:
  • mishpatim (judgments, more rational moral commands)
  • chukkim (statutes, ritual or seemingly irrational)
But this is not the later Christian “moral vs. ceremonial” distinction and never meant “the moral laws apply forever and the ceremonial do not.”
For Jews, the whole Torah is covenantal and binding upon Israel.
So the idea of a hard division in the law did not come from Judaism.
2. Early Christians did not use the later Protestant categories
New Testament
The NT repeatedly says the Mosaic Law as a covenant was binding on Israel, not the nations (Acts 15; Gal 3–4; Rom 6–7; Eph 2).
The apostles never break the Law into “moral vs ceremonial.” Instead, they contrast:
  • the Law of Moses
  • the Law of Christ / Law of the Spirit
Jesus quotes the Ten Commandments but the NT does not teach that the Ten remain as a separate binding code while the rest is abolished.
Paul explicitly includes the Ten Commandments in what he calls “the ministry of death carved in letters on stone” (2 Cor 3:7).
Early Church Fathers
The Fathers generally saw:
  • the Law of Moses as fulfilled in Christ,
  • moral teachings reaffirmed by Christ as binding,
  • Jewish rituals as completed and ended.
They did not formalize the later Protestant “moral / ceremonial / civil” categories.
The “Ten Commandments vs. ceremonial law” distinction began slowly to appear but was not systematic.
3. Augustine is the earliest major figure to separate the Ten Commandments
St. Augustine (4th–5th century) is the first major theologian to:
  • Treat the Decalogue as having a unique, permanent moral character
  • Treat the rest of the Mosaic legislation as temporary, typological, and fulfilled.
This is the seed of the later Catholic and Protestant distinction, though not yet fully developed.
4. Medieval Catholic Theology solidified the distinction
Medieval Scholastics (Aquinas especially) formalized the categorization:
Thomas Aquinas divided the Law into:
  1. Moral law – universal, grounded in natural law; includes the Ten Commandments.
  2. Ceremonial law – rituals, sacrifices, clean/unclean; fulfilled and abolished in Christ.
  3. Judicial (civil) law – Israel’s civil statutes; expired with the nation of Israel.
This is the classic triple division of the law, adopted officially in Catholic theology.
Thus, the Catholic view you mention (the Ten Commandments remain binding) comes from Aquinas' moral-law category, not from Reformers.
5. The Reformers inherited Aquinas’ distinctions
Luther and Calvin accepted the Catholic threefold division almost wholesale.
The Reformers differed mainly in how the Ten Commandments apply, not whether they remain.
Luther:
  • Affirmed the moral law (incl. the Ten) still applies.
  • Ceremonial law fulfilled in Christ.
  • Judicial law expired.
Calvin:
  • Same tripartite division.
  • Strong emphasis on the abiding validity of the Decalogue.
So the popular Protestant idea that:
“The moral law (Ten Commandments) remains, the ceremonial law was abolished”
is essentially Christianized Thomism rather than something found in the NT itself.​
6. Your position—“The law was only for Israel; ceremonial contains moral”—has strong biblical basis
Your view aligns closely with a New Covenant reading:
  • The Law of Moses was a covenant with Israel alone (Deut 5:3; Ps 147:19–20).
  • Gentiles were never under that covenant (Rom 2:14; Eph 2:11–12).
  • The Law is a single covenant unit (Gal 5:3).
  • The Ten Commandments are part of that unit (Ex 34:28).
  • The NT treats the entire law, including the stone tablets, as a ministry that has faded (2 Cor 3:7–11).
This view is held by many modern biblical scholars and by most “New Covenant Theology” frameworks.
You’re also correct that:
  • The ceremonial law contains moral obligations (e.g., the sacrificial system requiring repentance, care for the poor, love of neighbor embedded in festivals and rituals).
    Thus dividing the law into moral vs ceremonial is conceptually messy.
7. Summary of where the idea came from
Not Judaism.
Not the early NT church.
Not the apostles.

Instead:
Era Development Augustine (4th–5th c.)First major distinction between the Decalogue and the restAquinas (13th c.)Codified the moral / ceremonial / judicial divisionReformers (16th c.)Adopted Aquinas’ categories and popularized them
So the idea that:
“The Ten Commandments are binding but the ceremonial law is not”
originates mainly from Augustine → Aquinas → Reformers, not from Moses, the apostles, or the early Church.
 
I see the law as only given to Israel and not to the Gentiles. The ceremonial law contains moral law.

AI replied.

Below is a concise, historically grounded explanation of where the idea of dividing the Law of Moses arose, how it developed in Judaism, the early Church, the Catholic tradition, and the Protestant Reformers, and how to situate your own view within those trajectories.

Even today there must be a division

Logically .... do you keep all of Moses laws today. We can not keep all the laws today.
It is impossible.. do you agree..

God gave these laws and they were for Israel's GOOD, ... Do you agree.

I see the change that took place when the nation of Israel crucified the saviour of the world.. The time was foretold that the sacrificial system would end. Circumcision ended and many of the 613 laws that were applied to a physical nation were now spiritually applied to the Spiritual Israel.

When people throw out the whole law and all the principles as one they are presuming that this is God's will.

Do you throw out all the law?

If you say no, this is where the devil has fun because people start picking and choosing which laws they want to remain... "I think 9 of the 10 are good to follow today". ...

I believe that the laws given to Israel are valid unless they are districtly or logically shown to be nailed to the cross..

For example ... logically the civil laws that dictate who is killed by stoning and how to kill people do not apply because we as a nation are under the civil power of our own country. Politics. If God was the civil ruler of our nation like He was in Moses day it would make sense to follow those rules.

Another example... we are specifically told that the law of ordinance was nailed to the cross. Col 2.
These laws are also called shadow laws
Jesus is the antitype. The laws that are Topological of Jesus's ministry are shadow laws.

Don't throw out all the laws or just pick and choose which laws you want to obey.

Prove which laws are not valid.
 
Prove which laws are not valid.

Prove anyone said that as you continue to misrepresent what we are saying here.

You have lost any validity you may have thought you had by continuing to pretend anyone said the laws are not valid

They are not valid for CHRISTIANS. They are not valid because Jesus fullfilled all of the law and we are declared righteous in God's eyes because of what He did. This has been proven again and again with scripture and entire passages from the Bible. You CHOOSE, yes choose, to ignore that and just keep chewing the cud of laws from the OT. Since so much scripture has already been posted and you refuse it and you do not acknowledge that Jesus is the end of the law and created a way out of our sin predicament, there is no point in posting it all again.

You have stated we don't post scripture. That is nonsense. Posts are full of scripture and you ignore it.

I mean honestly, what do you think you are doing by your constant drip drip dripping of saying the above. Cling to the laws all you want but you will never be able to fullfill them. It's sad and almost funny that you keep this charade up because no one has said the laws are not valid. Listen; you can wear them as phylacteries at this point and sleep with them that way too. Even God will not stop you if you are that desperate to engage with them.

As for the rest of us, we understand that Jesus has made a new covenant and we understand what sin is and we understand that because of God's mercy and love, we depend on what Jesus has done and we do not try to add to salvation and thereby tell God what He has done is not enough.
 
I could not tell you knew anything about the NT from your previous post, but now my question is this:
If you are familiar with all of the dozens of NT references, why do you omit all by Jesus and Paul?
Do you have a problem with going to heaven? Do you think it is our punishment?!
Do you have a problem with the new creation being described as a new heaven and earth?
I doubt it will be boring just because there will be no more sin.


I have ask many for the scriptures --none have come forward -- can you

Just one that says the reward for the saved is living in heaven
 
Even today there must be a division

Logically .... do you keep all of Moses laws today. We can not keep all the laws today.
It is impossible.. do you agree..

God gave these laws and they were for Israel's GOOD, ... Do you agree.

I see the change that took place when the nation of Israel crucified the saviour of the world.. The time was foretold that the sacrificial system would end. Circumcision ended and many of the 613 laws that were applied to a physical nation were now spiritually applied to the Spiritual Israel.

When people throw out the whole law and all the principles as one they are presuming that this is God's will.

Do you throw out all the law?

If you say no, this is where the devil has fun because people start picking and choosing which laws they want to remain... "I think 9 of the 10 are good to follow today". ...

I believe that the laws given to Israel are valid unless they are districtly or logically shown to be nailed to the cross..

For example ... logically the civil laws that dictate who is killed by stoning and how to kill people do not apply because we as a nation are under the civil power of our own country. Politics. If God was the civil ruler of our nation like He was in Moses day it would make sense to follow those rules.

Another example... we are specifically told that the law of ordinance was nailed to the cross. Col 2.
These laws are also called shadow laws
Jesus is the antitype. The laws that are Topological of Jesus's ministry are shadow laws.

Don't throw out all the laws or just pick and choose which laws you want to obey.

Prove which laws are not valid.

I choose this ceremonial law that is valid and one of the most powerful ordinances, I have ever
seen in the scripture. It is one of the paramount commandments ever given to Israel.

Deuteronomy 26:13
You shall say before the Lord your God, ‘I have removed the sacred portion from my house, and also
have given it to the Levite and the alien, the orphan and the widow, according to all Your commandments
which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed or forgotten any of Your commandments.

I regard that as a commandment and have a serious problem with the ten word flock.
 
There is a problem with the idea that the ten words given to covenant Israel, are binding on the Gentile nations.
The question I asked AI.
Where did the idea that the law of Mt Sinai become divided into the ten commandments and and the ceremonial law? The Catholic Church states the ten are binding on Christians. The Reformers and Protestants believe the law is divided into commandments and ceremonial. A further division in the law is moral and ceremonial. I see the law as only given to Israel and not to the Gentiles. The ceremonial law contains moral law.
AI replied.
Below is a concise, historically grounded explanation of where the idea of dividing the Law of Moses arose, how it developed in Judaism, the early Church, the Catholic tradition, and the Protestant Reformers, and how to situate your own view within those trajectories.
1. Judaism did not divide the Law into “moral vs. ceremonial”
In ancient Judaism, the Torah was one unified covenant, given specifically to Israel.
Jewish sources treat the 613 commandments as a single, indivisible law, even though rabbinic writers do sometimes distinguish between:
  • mishpatim (judgments, more rational moral commands)
  • chukkim (statutes, ritual or seemingly irrational)
But this is not the later Christian “moral vs. ceremonial” distinction and never meant “the moral laws apply forever and the ceremonial do not.”
For Jews, the whole Torah is covenantal and binding upon Israel.
So the idea of a hard division in the law did not come from Judaism.
2. Early Christians did not use the later Protestant categories
New Testament
The NT repeatedly says the Mosaic Law as a covenant was binding on Israel, not the nations (Acts 15; Gal 3–4; Rom 6–7; Eph 2).
The apostles never break the Law into “moral vs ceremonial.” Instead, they contrast:
  • the Law of Moses
  • the Law of Christ / Law of the Spirit
Jesus quotes the Ten Commandments but the NT does not teach that the Ten remain as a separate binding code while the rest is abolished.
Paul explicitly includes the Ten Commandments in what he calls “the ministry of death carved in letters on stone” (2 Cor 3:7).
Early Church Fathers
The Fathers generally saw:
  • the Law of Moses as fulfilled in Christ,
  • moral teachings reaffirmed by Christ as binding,
  • Jewish rituals as completed and ended.
They did not formalize the later Protestant “moral / ceremonial / civil” categories.
The “Ten Commandments vs. ceremonial law” distinction began slowly to appear but was not systematic.
3. Augustine is the earliest major figure to separate the Ten Commandments
St. Augustine (4th–5th century) is the first major theologian to:
  • Treat the Decalogue as having a unique, permanent moral character
  • Treat the rest of the Mosaic legislation as temporary, typological, and fulfilled.
This is the seed of the later Catholic and Protestant distinction, though not yet fully developed.
4. Medieval Catholic Theology solidified the distinction
Medieval Scholastics (Aquinas especially) formalized the categorization:
Thomas Aquinas divided the Law into:
  1. Moral law – universal, grounded in natural law; includes the Ten Commandments.
  2. Ceremonial law – rituals, sacrifices, clean/unclean; fulfilled and abolished in Christ.
  3. Judicial (civil) law – Israel’s civil statutes; expired with the nation of Israel.
This is the classic triple division of the law, adopted officially in Catholic theology.
Thus, the Catholic view you mention (the Ten Commandments remain binding) comes from Aquinas' moral-law category, not from Reformers.
5. The Reformers inherited Aquinas’ distinctions
Luther and Calvin accepted the Catholic threefold division almost wholesale.
The Reformers differed mainly in how the Ten Commandments apply, not whether they remain.
Luther:
  • Affirmed the moral law (incl. the Ten) still applies.
  • Ceremonial law fulfilled in Christ.
  • Judicial law expired.
Calvin:
  • Same tripartite division.
  • Strong emphasis on the abiding validity of the Decalogue.
So the popular Protestant idea that:
“The moral law (Ten Commandments) remains, the ceremonial law was abolished”
is essentially Christianized Thomism rather than something found in the NT itself.​
6. Your position—“The law was only for Israel; ceremonial contains moral”—has strong biblical basis
Your view aligns closely with a New Covenant reading:
  • The Law of Moses was a covenant with Israel alone (Deut 5:3; Ps 147:19–20).
  • Gentiles were never under that covenant (Rom 2:14; Eph 2:11–12).
  • The Law is a single covenant unit (Gal 5:3).
  • The Ten Commandments are part of that unit (Ex 34:28).
  • The NT treats the entire law, including the stone tablets, as a ministry that has faded (2 Cor 3:7–11).
This view is held by many modern biblical scholars and by most “New Covenant Theology” frameworks.
You’re also correct that:
  • The ceremonial law contains moral obligations (e.g., the sacrificial system requiring repentance, care for the poor, love of neighbor embedded in festivals and rituals).
    Thus dividing the law into moral vs ceremonial is conceptually messy.
7. Summary of where the idea came from
Not Judaism.
Not the early NT church.
Not the apostles.

Instead:
Era Development Augustine (4th–5th c.)First major distinction between the Decalogue and the restAquinas (13th c.)Codified the moral / ceremonial / judicial divisionReformers (16th c.)Adopted Aquinas’ categories and popularized them
So the idea that:
“The Ten Commandments are binding but the ceremonial law is not”
originates mainly from Augustine → Aquinas → Reformers, not from Moses, the apostles, or the early Church.

I agree that the OT made no distinction between ceremonial and moral laws.
I derive my view from the NT, especially Hebrews 7:11-10:1, and I discern that
all moral laws are summarized by the law of love, and the Sabbath Law belongs in the Levitical/ceremonial group.
 
Heb 4 talks about the day of rest, the sabbath made at creation is clearly referred to ...
Heb 4:9-10
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

But this Sabbath rest is not removed or replaced in this text.

It is used to explan the rest we are going to have in Jesus when He takes us into the promised land.. The context is important.

The type is when Joshua took Israel into the promised land and gave the land promised to the 12 tribes.

Then the land had rest.

It was by faith in God's power that they came into this promise.
By faith that had fruits in obedience.

The typology.. antitype is Christ taking us home to the promised land.

God gave them all they needed, food, water and all their provisions were suplied. Christ will give us this rest if we follow Him by faith.

But Israel didn't obey their Lord
they didn't have faith and their fruits were shown in disobedience..

Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:9-10
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

When you read it with an open mind and understand the meaning. I can not see any reason to say the sabbath command is replaced by Jesus..
I see reason to keep it all the more.