Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

it seems your disagreement is with you not me. And it seems your disagreement is with everything that doesn't suit your understanding of scripture which is of few people.

All deeds are seen in his light no one is without excuse

Which translates to God knows the heart of the unsaved

Theres no way you could have been saved if he didn't

So...in your world merely seeing/knowing is identical to actually doing? Neither Jer 10:23 or Dan 5:23 are talking about merely seeing or knowing.

 

[Jordon]

Mr. Jordon, sir, I will ask you the same question that I asked dumbfounded CV5 yesterday about the assassination attempt on Trump in Butler, PA in which two innocent people in the crowd were killed while Trump was spared.

Was the shooter's failed attempt on Trump's life and the murder of two innocent people in the crowd due to:

1. Blind Luck or
2. Pure Chance or
3. Divine Providence?

well in the world of conspiracy the shooter Was a cloned human with a chip in his head, and the whole thing was a publicity stunt, to get the USA to to vote for trump

In trumps head it was a miracle

That proves he was chosen

 

[Jordon]

So...in your world merely seeing/knowing is identical to actually doing? Neither Jer 10:23 or Dan 5:23 are talking about merely seeing or knowing.

your citing scripture that also the Israelites also did whilst the lord was strengthening there hearts

 

[Rufus]

your citing scripture that also the Israelites also did whilst the lord was strengthening there hearts

Neither Jer 10:23 or Dan 5:23 talks about God strengthening hearts. You clearly cannot believe what scripture teaches in its context.

You also cannot believe Josh 10:12-13 in which Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. And God honored Joshua's wishes with His efficacious, supernatural power that goes well beyond merely seeing or knowing.

 

[Jordon]

Neither Jer 10:23 or Dan 5:23 talks about God strengthening hearts. You clearly cannot believe what scripture teaches in its context.

You also cannot believe Josh 10:12-13 in which Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. And God honored Joshua's wishes with His efficacious, supernatural power that goes well beyond merely seeing or knowing.

In all the time God was knowing the Israelites they worshiped false idols and God stopped directing there steps when he left them in the desert.

And in that time he was also strengthening there hearts, as he could strengthening there hearts.

Because he's God he could.

He was also strengthening hearts who obeyed They wouldn't have been able to obey otherwise.

I'm not sure what part of God speaking directly people, would you not see the power of his word can do in the hearts of the unsaved.

Obviously you only want to highlight what it didn't do in the unsaved to prove your agenda

Maybe we should in the direction of what can happen after a the word of God enters a person life and changes them.

 

[Jordon]

You also cannot believe Josh 10:12-13 in which Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. And God honored Joshua's wishes with His efficacious, supernatural power that goes well beyond merely seeing or knowing.

why can't I believe Joshua ?

Because you say so ?


Do I have to believe it like you.

The commanders judges kings of the army where given special treatment to have them seen as the leaders one of them included commanding Gods authority.

 

[Rufus]

well in the world of conspiracy the shooter Was a cloned human with a chip in his head, and the whole thing was a publicity stunt, to get the USA to to vote for trump

In trumps head it was a miracle

That proves he was chosen

So, again, you cannot give an honest, straightforward theologically-based answer to my multiple choice question. It certainly appears that biblical truth takes a back seat to your personal, biased presuppositions that you bring to bear upon holy writ. And this is why you cannot and will not give a straight, honest answer to my questions. You just love your assumptions too much.

Any true child of God would know and admit and confess that the only correct answer to my multiple choice questions would be #3 per the following passages:

Dan 5:23
23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
NIV

For your info, Belshazzar, whom Daniel was addressing, croaked that very night (v. 30).

And,

Job 14:5
5 Man's days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed.
NIV

And,

Luke 12:20
20 "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?'
NIV

So...it appears Trump might have been right, after all, when He publically acknowledge that God saved his life. I find it more than strange that YOU cannot do this, as a professing Christian yet! And since you can't, then this must mean that everything that happens in this world is all random and by chance or by luck and that God isn't in total control of his Creation. Yet, two people in that Butler, PA crowd were murdered. And the reason was that God decreed their deaths, the time of their deaths and the manner of those deaths in eternity! IOW, God numbered those two victims' days before the beginning of time!

You don't know that you're a closet deist, heh -- or at least wax very much like one?

 

[Jordon]

You also cannot believe Josh 10:12-13 in which Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. And God honored Joshua's wishes with His efficacious, supernatural power that goes well beyond merely seeing or knowing.

God instructed Moses to raise his staff and keep it raised.

And when moses couldn't keep his hands up they got beat in battle

When he Got tired he got help to help him keep his hands up


Maybe in your dumbfounded mind you could see God giving Joshua the idea to make the sun stand still.

 

[Jordon]

So, again, you cannot give an honest, straightforward theologically-based answer to my multiple choice question. It certainly appears that biblical truth takes a back seat to your personal, biased presuppositions that you bring to bear upon holy writ. And this is why you cannot and will not give a straight, honest answer to my questions. You just love your assumptions too much.

Any true child of God would know and admit and confess that the only correct answer to my multiple choice questions would be #3 per the following passages:

Dan 5:23
23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
NIV

For your info, Belshazzar, whom Daniel was addressing, croaked that very night (v. 30).

And,

Job 14:5
5 Man's days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed.
NIV

And,

Luke 12:20
20 "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?'
NIV

So...it appears Trump might have been right, after all, when He publically acknowledge that God saved his life. I find it more than strange that YOU cannot do this, as a professing Christian yet! And since you can't, then this must mean that everything that happens in this world is all random and by chance or by luck and that God isn't in total control of his Creation. Yet, two people in that Butler, PA crowd were murdered. And the reason was that God decreed their deaths, the time of their deaths and the manner of those deaths in eternity! IOW, God numbered those two victims' days before the beginning of time!

You don't know that you're a closet deist, heh -- or at least wax very much like one?

err I said Trump believed it was a miracle and he believes
he was chosen for a higher person.
And now it looks like you are trying to control my thoughts

It's seems your back on the im right trail again.

The trouble with you rufus is you've got yourself in a pit trying to prove God does not talk to certain people or know them.

You'll walk a lonely life friend

 

[Rufus]

In all the time God was knowing the Israelites they worshiped false idols and God stopped directing there steps when he left them in the desert.

And in that time he was also strengthening there hearts, as he could strengthening there hearts.

Because he's God he could.

He was also strengthening hearts who obeyed They wouldn't have been able to obey otherwise.

I'm not sure what part of God speaking directly people, would you not see the power of his word can do in the hearts of the unsaved.

Obviously you only want to highlight what it didn't do in the unsaved to prove your agenda

Maybe we should in the direction of what can happen after a the word of God enters a person life and changes them.

So...God directs man's steps and doesn't direct man's steps? It's an "on" and "off" proposition with God? It's all contingent on how man responds to God. Yet, scripture doesn't teach this "yes and no" proposition.

 

[Rufus]

God instructed Moses to raise his staff and keep it raised.

And when moses couldn't keep his hands up they got beat in battle

When he Got tired he got help to help him keep his hands up


Maybe in your dumbfounded mind you could see God giving Joshua the idea to make the sun stand still.

So, you now admit that Joshua didn't make the sun stand still because he simply knew and saw it hanging up there in the sky? He actually issued a command, thereby invoking God's efficacious, supernatural power to get the sun to do what it did.

 

[Jordon]

So, you now admit that Joshua didn't make the sun stand still because he simply knew and saw it hanging up there in the sky? He actually issued a command, thereby invoking God's efficacious, supernatural power to get the sun to do what it did.

try seeing God in Joshua God made the sun stand still he looked ahead through Joshua

That may help.

When ideas and thoughts come to prophets or messengers they speak.

The trouble is Rufus if you don't see God in people when they speak you may just end up Drawing your own conclusion, the bible is also split into people expressing there understanding.

You have to be careful because it's not always expressed in full.

We can Go round in circles Rufus, but just to let you, I'm really Good at full 360 circles I can race your socks of , as I believe I'm more wholly than you

 

[Rufus]

err I said Trump believed it was a miracle and he believes
he was chosen for a higher person.
And now it looks like you are trying to control my thoughts

It's seems your back on the im right trail again.

The trouble with you rufus is you've got yourself in a pit trying to prove God does not talk to certain people or know them.

You'll walk a lonely life friend

I didn't ask you what Trump believed. My multiple choice question wasn't aimed at him. It was aimed at you, and you clearly did not echo Trump's sentiments. You tried to get cute with your original answer to the questions, so now you appeal to Trump's sentiments as if they were yours all the time. Very duplicitous of you.

And God most definitely does not know every person in the world in a covenantal sense because God has never made a redemptive covenant with the world in the distributive sense. God covenantally knows only his sheep -- so personally and intimately He knows them right down to their very name.

 

[Jordon]

So...God directs man's steps and doesn't direct man's steps? It's an "on" and "off" proposition with God? It's all contingent on how man responds to God. Yet, scripture doesn't teach this "yes and no" proposition.

yes exactly rufus when the lights go out it's a knockout

 

[Rufus]

try seeing God in Joshua God made the sun stand still he looked ahead through Joshua

That may help.

When ideas and thoughts come to prophets or messengers they speak.

The trouble is Rufus if you don't see God in people when they speak you may just end up Drawing your own conclusion, the bible is also split into people expressing there understanding.

You have to be careful because it's not always expressed in full.

We can Go round in circles Rufus, but just to let you, I'm really Good at full 360 circles I can race your socks of , as I believe I'm more wholly than you

So, now you deny that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still? If Joshua had said nothing but just knew and looked at the sun, the sun would have just acted on its own, right? Maybe the sun has "freewill", too, heh?

 

[Rufus]

yes exactly rufus when the lights go out it's a knockout

I surmised as much by knowing you. Doubtlessly, you are the quintessential knockout victim of this universe.

 

[Jordon]

I didn't ask you what Trump believed. My multiple choice question wasn't aimed at him. It was aimed at you, and you clearly did not echo Trump's sentiments. You tried to get cute with your original answer to the questions, so now you appeal to Trump's sentiments as if they were yours all the time. Very duplicitous of you.

And God most definitely does not know every person in the world in a covenantal sense because God has never made a redemptive covenant with the world in the distributive sense. God covenantally knows only his sheep -- so personally and intimately He knows them right down to their very name.

lol you might say that, but I believe in miracles, I believe the day trump was born was a miracle and I believe trump is a legend who will go down in history as the man who saved the world lol well at least to the Americans who think they have the biggest lawn mowers lol.

 

[Jordon]

I surmised as much by knowing you. Doubtlessly, you are the quintessential knockout victim of this universe.

well rufus the truth is in my mind the secrets of the universe is in my mind, and I see myself as a space cowboy defending those secrets for when specs of dust come along who haven't got to level of my imagination, otherwise they will steal what I have, so I won't reveal all on a blink of eye to you.

 

[Jordon]

So, now you deny that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still? If Joshua had said nothing but just knew and looked at the sun, the sun would have just acted on its own, right? Maybe the sun has "freewill", too, heh?

Nope once again I said Joshua commanded Gods authority, because God was giving him the idea to.


And now I command that you bless your holy cotton socks in Jesus name and your free will of the flesh whilst your at it.

But I also command that you stop making assumptions to in Jesus name.

 

[Rufus]

lol you might say that, but I believe in miracles, I believe the day trump was born was a miracle and I believe trump is a legend who will go down in history as the man who saved the world lol well at least to the Americans who think they have the biggest lawn mowers lol.

But you didn't claim Trump's feelings or sentiments in your original reply. Instead you waxed political and gave a smart aleck answer to a serious theologically-based question.

So...here's a follow up question: Do you believe that God proactively and supernaturally restrains evil in this world, apart from his various divinely-ordained forms of government that He instituted in this world, and apart from how he designed His image bearers? I'll explain what I mean by the qualified second clause in the question to mitigate misunderstanding and deflections:

God Ordained Forms of Government:

1. Relational which is the Family Unit.
2. Societal which is Civil Authority
3. Spiritual which is Christ's Church

God's Design of His Image Bearers:

4. Conscience
5. Intuitive Revelation (the works of the law of God written on all men's hearts).

Again...to be crystal clear: I'm not referring to any of the above five restraints. I'm talking about direct action by God's own hands or through the directed agency of others, e.g. people God raised up specifically for this purpose.