Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Fallen man may not believe that he is working toward God's glory, but his failures to cast God aside do in fact glorify God. Case in point Pharaoh!

God uses our fallen nature for his glory.
How?

Every time Satan accuses the brethren before the Lord?
Satan is putting another nail in his coffin.
For what he condemns in a believer?
Is the very nature he himself is the father of.

But,.... we have been crucified with Christ! (gal 2:20)
So what Satan condemns in us, has him biting onto dust!

In the mean while...
The Cross protects us from any condemnation, while the Lord is always pleading for us as our advocate in case we do sin.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.
But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father
—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 1 John 2:1​

It is a colossal divine neat trick!

For God has arranged for Satan to become his own judge and executioner!
What he condemns in us is what he is!

Satan will have no leg to stand on when trying to find a way out of the Lake of Fire!
For God has tricked Satan into becoming his own judge and executioner by means of him
allowing Satan to condemn us because of our fallen natures!

That is why God benefitted by allowing man to fall.
No more excuses will be heard from Satan because over the years
he has been condemning himself to hell without knowing it!

Once this is understood by God's angels? They can laugh like they are now watching a comedy
with God making Satan into the ultimate fool! Getting Satan to condemn himself!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kroogz
is it your claim that Moses was the only believer from the generation which was not allowed to go into the promised land? ... not one single person, other than Moses, had faith? ... is that what you believe, Rufus?

You have no idea who came to faith in the wilderness and who did not come to faith in the wilderness ... only God knows.

.

No, that's not what I believe. (After all, there is Joshua, right <g>?) However, virtually an entire generation of Hebrews were not permitted to enter the land -- due to lack of faith per Heb 3. For the most part, only second generation Hebrews were allowed to enter.

Did you read Ps 78, as I suggested? If so, do you think that is a glowing, flattering commentary on the spiritual condition of the Israelites?
 
[
[
at least 600.000 at least entered the promised land after 40 years of discipline and at least 600.000 never, somewhere close to them figures

I may be out can't remember the exact numbers, but them being left in the wilderness was the physical extrusion anyhow.

But it does say they where left to die.

But the point was God still had a relationship with the ones he left in the wilderness, which was my point.

Which Rufus will not even acknowledge,

It's just like the 1000s of other post of mine that get disagreed with lol.

Just another one to the collection 🤩

Everyone has some kind of "relationship" with God; but with most people on this planet, that relationship is not good! It was the same with virtually the entire first generation of Hebrews that came out Egypt. They lacked faith (Heb 3:19), so God let them perish.

Maybe you, too, should get up to speed on the condensed, succinct history of the ancient Hebrews in Ps 78.
 
God uses our fallen nature for his glory.
How?


Every time Satan accuses the brethren before the Lord?
Satan is putting another nail in his coffin.
For what he condemns in a believer?
Is the very nature he himself is the father of.

But,.... we have been crucified with Christ! (gal 2:20)
So what Satan condemns in us, has him biting onto dust!

In the mean while...
The Cross protects us from any condemnation, while the Lord is always pleading for us as our advocate in case we do sin.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.
But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father
—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 1 John 2:1​

It is a colossal divine neat trick!

For God has arranged for Satan to become his own judge and executioner!
What he condemns in us is what he is!

Satan will have no leg to stand on when trying to find a way out of the Lake of Fire!
For God has tricked Satan into becoming his own judge and executioner by means of him
allowing Satan to condemn us because of our fallen natures!

That is why God benefitted by allowing man to fall.
No more excuses will be heard from Satan because over the years
he has been condemning himself to hell without knowing it!

Once this is understood by God's angels? They can laugh like they are now watching a comedy
with God making Satan into the ultimate fool! Getting Satan to condemn himself!

Wasn't God glorified by Pharaoh's fallen nature? You're trying to reason with worldly wisdom instead of accepting what scripture teaches and understanding that God does NOT think or act like we mere mortals do. He is soooooooooooo OTHER (i.e. different) than we are; yet you constantly try to squeeze him into your little box.
 
Here's the 78th Psalm in its entirety. It seems like some here are not very familiar with this lengthy Psalm:

Ps 78
Tell the Coming Generation

A Maskil of Asaph.

1 Give ear, O my people, to my teaching;incline your ears to the words of my mouth!2 I will open my mouth in a parable;I will utter dark sayings from of old,3 things that we have heard and known,that our fathers have told us.4 We will not hide them from their children,but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the Lord, and his might,and the wonders that he has done.
5 He established a testimony in Jacob and appointed a law in Israel,which he commanded our fathers to teach to their children,6 that the next generation might know them,the children yet unborn,and arise and tell them to their children,7 so that they should set their hope in God and not forget the works of God,but keep his commandments;8 and that they should not be like their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation,a generation whose heart was not steadfast,whose spirit was not faithful to God.9 The Ephraimites, armed with the bow, turned back on the day of battle.10 They did not keep God's covenant,but refused to walk according to his law.11 They forgot his works and the wonders that he had shown them.12 In the sight of their fathers he performed wonders in the land of Egypt, in the fields of Zoan.13 He divided the sea and let them pass through it,and made the waters stand like a heap.14 In the daytime he led them with a cloud,and all the night with a fiery light.15 He split rocks in the wilderness and gave them drink abundantly as from the deep.16 He made streams come out of the rock and caused waters to flow down like rivers.17 Yet they sinned still more against him, rebelling against the Most High in the desert.18 They tested God in their heart by demanding the food they craved.19 They spoke against God, saying, "Can God spread a table in the wilderness?


20 He struck the rock so that water gushed out and streams overflowed.Can he also give bread or provide meat for his people?"
21 Therefore, when the Lord heard, he was full of wrath; a fire was kindled against Jacob;his anger rose against Israel,
22 because they did not believe in God and did not trust his saving power. 23 Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,24 and he rained down on them manna to eat and gave them the grain of heaven.25 Man ate of the bread of the angels;he sent them food in abundance.26 He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens,and by his power he led out the south wind;27 he rained meat on them like dust,winged birds like the sand of the seas;28 he let them fall in the midst of their camp,all around their dwellings.29 And they ate and were well filled,for he gave them what they craved.30 But before they had satisfied their craving, while the food was still in their mouths,31 the anger of God rose against them,and he killed the strongest of them and laid low the young men of Israel.

32 In spite of all this, they still sinned; despite his wonders, they did not believe.33 So he made their days vanish like a breath, and their years in terror.34 When he killed them, they sought him;they repented and sought God earnestly.35 They remembered that God was their rock,the Most High God their redeemer.36 But they flattered him with their mouths;they lied to him with their tongues.37 Their heart was not steadfast toward him;they were not faithful to his covenant.38 Yet he, being compassionate, atoned for their iniquity and did not destroy them;he restrained his anger often and did not stir up all his wrath.39 He remembered that they were but flesh, a wind that passes and comes not again.40 How often they rebelled against him in the wilderness and grieved him in the desert!41 They tested God again and again and provoked the Holy One of Israel.42 They did not remember his power or the day when he redeemed them from the foe,43 when he performed his signs in Egypt and his marvels in the fields of Zoan.44 He turned their rivers to blood,so that they could not drink of their streams.45 He sent among them swarms of flies, which devoured them,and frogs, which destroyed them.46 He gave their crops to the destroying locust and the fruit of their labor to the locust.47 He destroyed their vines with hail and their sycamores with frost.48 He gave over their cattle to the hail and their flocks to thunderbolts.49 He let loose on them his burning anger,wrath, indignation, and distress,a company of destroying angels.50 He made a path for his anger;he did not spare them from death,but gave their lives over to the plague.51 He struck down every firstborn in Egypt,the firstfruits of their strength in the tents of Ham.52 Then he led out his people like sheep and guided them in the wilderness like a flock.53 He led them in safety, so that they were not afraid,but the sea overwhelmed their enemies.54 And he brought them to his holy land, to the mountain which his right hand had won.55 He drove out nations before them;he apportioned them for a possession and settled the tribes of Israel in their tents.

56 Yet they tested and rebelled against the Most High God and did not keep his testimonies,57 but turned away and acted treacherously like their fathers;they twisted like a deceitful bow.58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places;they moved him to jealousy with their idols.59 When God heard, he was full of wrath,and he utterly rejected Israel.60 He forsook his dwelling at Shiloh,the tent where he dwelt among mankind,61 and delivered his power to captivity,his glory to the hand of the foe.62 He gave his people over to the sword and vented his wrath on his heritage.63 Fire devoured their young men,and their young women had no marriage song.64 Their priests fell by the sword,and their widows made no lamentation.65 Then the Lord awoke as from sleep,like a strong man shouting because of wine.66 And he put his adversaries to rout;he put them to everlasting shame.
67 He rejected the tent of Joseph;he did not choose the tribe of Ephraim,68 but he chose the tribe of Judah,Mount Zion, which he loves.69 He built his sanctuary like the high heavens,like the earth, which he has founded forever.70 He chose David his servant and took him from the sheepfolds;71 from following the nursing ewes he brought him to shepherd Jacob his people,Israel his inheritance.72 With upright heart he shepherded them and guided them with his skillful hand.

ESV

Sounds like most of the Israelites didn't have such a great spiritual or covenant relationship with God.
 
Wasn't God glorified by Pharaoh's fallen nature? You're trying to reason with worldly wisdom instead of accepting what scripture teaches and understanding that God does NOT think or act like we mere mortals do. He is soooooooooooo OTHER (i.e. different) than we are; yet you constantly try to squeeze him into your little box.


If you did not miss my point...
To make your own..
I might try reasoning with you.
 
Everyone has some kind of "relationship" with God; but with most people on this planet, that relationship is not good! It was the same with virtually the entire first generation of Hebrews that came out Egypt. They lacked faith (Heb 3:19), so God let them perish.

Maybe you, too, should get up to speed on the condensed, succinct history of the ancient Hebrews in Ps 78.
So now you admit it, wasn't so difficult was it.

Good at last where in the same wave length for once, however whether the relationship is Good or bad, at least they're having something, however being saved is a precious gift, and whilst it may have been a breeze for you, which i suspect it wasn't, why should your relation with God be any better than someone elses when you where not saved ?

Any I'm of to sleep now.

So good night I'll look forward to your answer.
 
No, that's not what I believe. (After all, there is Joshua, right <g>?)
Joshua and Caleb (the 2 witnesses) were the only ones over the age of 20 who were allowed to go into the promised land.




Rufus said:
However, virtually an entire generation of Hebrews were not permitted to enter the land -- due to lack of faith per Heb 3. For the most part, only second generation Hebrews were allowed to enter.
yep.




Rufus said:
Did you read Ps 78, as I suggested? If so, do you think that is a glowing, flattering commentary on the spiritual condition of the Israelites?
about par for the course as far as I can see. do you think believers are any different today, Rufus?

reading through the pages of this thread ... the behavior you see here ... do you believe the manifold wisdom of God is exhibited to principalities and powers in the heavenlies?

.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Genez
No, that's not what I believe. (After all, there is Joshua, right <g>?) However, virtually an entire generation of Hebrews were not permitted to enter the land -- due to lack of faith per Heb 3. For the most part, only second generation Hebrews were allowed to enter.

Did you read Ps 78, as I suggested? If so, do you think that is a glowing, flattering commentary on the spiritual condition of the Israelites?
Don't worry @Rufus , God has not abandoned Israel. And everyone will know soon enough.....

[Jdg 15:2 KJV] 2 And her father said, I verily thought that thou hadst utterly hated her; therefore I gave her to thy companion: [is] not her younger sister fairer than she? take her, I pray thee, instead of her. ...

[Jdg 15:3 KJV] 3 And Samson said concerning them, Now shall I be more blameless than the Philistines, though I do them a displeasure.

15 And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.

16 And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men.
 
Here's the 78th Psalm in its entirety. It seems like some here are not very familiar with this lengthy Psalm:

Ps 78
Tell the Coming Generation

A Maskil of Asaph.

1 Give ear, O my people, to my teaching;incline your ears to the words of my mouth!2 I will open my mouth in a parable;I will utter dark sayings from of old,3 things that we have heard and known,that our fathers have told us.4 We will not hide them from their children,but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the Lord, and his might,and the wonders that he has done.
5 He established a testimony in Jacob and appointed a law in Israel,which he commanded our fathers to teach to their children,6 that the next generation might know them,the children yet unborn,and arise and tell them to their children,7 so that they should set their hope in God and not forget the works of God,but keep his commandments;8 and that they should not be like their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation,a generation whose heart was not steadfast,whose spirit was not faithful to God.9 The Ephraimites, armed with the bow, turned back on the day of battle.10 They did not keep God's covenant,but refused to walk according to his law.11 They forgot his works and the wonders that he had shown them.12 In the sight of their fathers he performed wonders in the land of Egypt, in the fields of Zoan.13 He divided the sea and let them pass through it,and made the waters stand like a heap.14 In the daytime he led them with a cloud,and all the night with a fiery light.15 He split rocks in the wilderness and gave them drink abundantly as from the deep.16 He made streams come out of the rock and caused waters to flow down like rivers.17 Yet they sinned still more against him, rebelling against the Most High in the desert.18 They tested God in their heart by demanding the food they craved.19 They spoke against God, saying, "Can God spread a table in the wilderness?


20 He struck the rock so that water gushed out and streams overflowed.Can he also give bread or provide meat for his people?"
21 Therefore, when the Lord heard, he was full of wrath; a fire was kindled against Jacob;his anger rose against Israel,
22 because they did not believe in God and did not trust his saving power. 23 Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,24 and he rained down on them manna to eat and gave them the grain of heaven.25 Man ate of the bread of the angels;he sent them food in abundance.26 He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens,and by his power he led out the south wind;27 he rained meat on them like dust,winged birds like the sand of the seas;28 he let them fall in the midst of their camp,all around their dwellings.29 And they ate and were well filled,for he gave them what they craved.30 But before they had satisfied their craving, while the food was still in their mouths,31 the anger of God rose against them,and he killed the strongest of them and laid low the young men of Israel.

32 In spite of all this, they still sinned; despite his wonders, they did not believe.33 So he made their days vanish like a breath, and their years in terror.34 When he killed them, they sought him;they repented and sought God earnestly.35 They remembered that God was their rock,the Most High God their redeemer.36 But they flattered him with their mouths;they lied to him with their tongues.37 Their heart was not steadfast toward him;they were not faithful to his covenant.38 Yet he, being compassionate, atoned for their iniquity and did not destroy them;he restrained his anger often and did not stir up all his wrath.39 He remembered that they were but flesh, . a wind that passes and comes not again.40 How often they rebelled against him in the wilderness and grieved him in the desert!41 They tested God again and again and provoked the Holy One of Israel.42 They did not remember his power or the day when he redeemed them from the foe,43 when he performed his signs in Egypt and his marvels in the fields of Zoan.44 He turned their rivers to blood,so that they could not drink of their streams.45 He sent among them swarms of flies, which devoured them,and frogs, which destroyed them.46 He gave their crops to the destroying locust and the fruit of their labor to the locust.47 He destroyed their vines with hail and their sycamores with frost.48 He gave over their cattle to the hail and their flocks to thunderbolts.49 He let loose on them his burning anger,wrath, indignation, and distress,a company of destroying angels.50 He made a path for his anger;he did not spare them from death,but gave their lives over to the plague.51 He struck down every firstborn in Egypt,the firstfruits of their strength in the tents of Ham.52 Then he led out his people like sheep and guided them in the wilderness like a flock.53 He led them in safety, so that they were not afraid,but the sea overwhelmed their enemies.54 And he brought them to his holy land, to the mountain which his right hand had won.55 He drove out nations before them;he apportioned them for a possession and settled the tribes of Israel in their tents.

56 Yet they tested and rebelled against the Most High God and did not keep his testimonies,57 but turned away and acted treacherously like their fathers;they twisted like a deceitful bow.58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places;they moved him to jealousy with their idols.59 When God heard, he was full of wrath,and he utterly rejected Israel.60 He forsook his dwelling at Shiloh,the tent where he dwelt among mankind,61 and delivered his power to captivity,his glory to the hand of the foe.62 He gave his people over to the sword and vented his wrath on his heritage.63 Fire devoured their young men,and their young women had no marriage song.64 Their priests fell by the sword,and their widows made no lamentation.65 Then the Lord awoke as from sleep,like a strong man shouting because of wine.66 And he put his adversaries to rout;he put them to everlasting shame.
67 He rejected the tent of Joseph;he did not choose the tribe of Ephraim,68 but he chose the tribe of Judah,Mount Zion, which he loves.69 He built his sanctuary like the high heavens,like the earth, which he has founded forever.70 He chose David his servant and took him from the sheepfolds;71 from following the nursing ewes he brought him to shepherd Jacob his people,Israel his inheritance.72 With upright heart he shepherded them and guided them with his skillful hand.

ESV

Sounds like most of the Israelites didn't have such a great spiritual or covenant relationship with God.
Rufus, You should take note of a few things in this scripture.

Through our there rebellion which was also an inner rebellion in there hearts, God remembered they where flesh, obviously that's also speaking to there free will of the flesh. And also you should make reference to the point they often rebelled against God which indicates not always, whilst God was trying to save them.

Rebellion here is inner rebellion Of Gods word going to work in there hearts.

You should all make reference that they sinned yet more more against God, which indicates God was remembering they where still flesh.

Which means God was still loving them, he was still having a relationship with them, as they were unable to have one him,

Which means Rufus God the father has the relationship with the unsaved, through his word which is alive and active, where people either obey or they go into rebellion

Which means Rufus that his living word is working in the hearts of both the saved and the unsaved.

You see the actions of his inner word making hearts steadfast or not making hearts steadfast.

Meaning Rufus both unsaved and those being saved are being treated the same.

The ones whos heart did become steadfast they entered the promised land, but this is the building of the heart and the process. Before Deuteronomy 30.6


Here we see some of Moses last words to the Israelites before entering the promised land, but the others had already been left in the wilderness as they hadn't reached this stage of Deuteronomy 30:6

Moses last few weeks with the Israelites


Deuteronomy 30:6
New International Version
6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. So it is the lord who saves 🙂


As we see it was the lord strengthening there hearts before and leading up to Deuteronomy 30.6 which was nearing the end of Moses last words to the Israelites, so a few weeks of more and they would ether the promised land.

But also,,, all the Israelites had all been built up in the heart the same way leading up to Deuteronomy 30:6 both saved and unsaved
 
The lord building up hearts before there saved

Psalm 147:3
New International Version
3 He heals the brokenhearted
and binds up their wounds.


Philippians 1:6
New International Version
6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

So here it is @Rufus 🙂
 
Because they repented. It has always been God's plan to spare those who repent.

Absolutely, but my question to the reformers is this...

Did God know ahead of time that Nineveh would repent and that he wasn't going to destroy them in forty days as he stated?
 
In order for any given passage to be understood correctly, that interpretation must align with, harmonize with and be consistent with the totality of God's divine revelation. You're understanding contradicts too many other passages. BIBLICAL THEOLOGY must comport with itself in its entirety, for God cannot lie.

Scripture is full of, "if you do this, then I'll do this" statements from God.

Jeremiah 18:
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

If you do this, I know what my response will be. But if you do that, I know what my response will be. Now choose.
 
Absolutely, but my question to the reformers is this...

Did God know ahead of time that Nineveh would repent and that he wasn't going to destroy them in forty days as he stated?
Yes he said he would destroy city in forty days if they didn't repent.

So there's for he knew he would destroy the city in forty of they didnt repent.

Did he know they would repent

Yes he knew because his words are alive and active.

The picture your painting is he didn't know.

You have God has not being able to knowing the future based on God saying the word if

The very reason he made them repent was because he wanted to change there future which was already set.

Why well they're future was God.

It looks your bible is the if Bible
 
Yes he said he would destroy city in forty days if they didn't repent.

Can you show where God said this in scripture? There was no "if" you don't repent. It was a plain statement, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." No if, but shall...
 
Can you show where God said this in scripture? There was no "if" you don't repent. It was a plain statement, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." No if, but shall...
yes he shall no ifs and no buts there futures was set only God could change it 🙂
 
Isaiah 46:10

New International Version



10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

Means God has a comprehensive knowledge of time and a guiding influence over future events meaning God sets our future only he can change it.


Thought provoking ideas

Mans free will lives in the flesh but God directs there steps.

Meaning God looks ahead of there steps 🙂