Israel and the present conflict

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They are blinded
ThereRoseaLamb said:
Oh I totally believe that Jews must come to faith the same as Gentiles do. I just believe that right now, as Romans 11 says, they are blinded.
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I hope they do but being a Jew means nothing today.

It is all about faith..
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Gal 4:25-26
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

JERUSALEM which is above is free..
The same city in Revelation is the one we need to have faith in.. not the city of this world, not the man made city.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Salvation is all about faith in Jesus and the Israel nation refused to accept Jesus, so Jesus said...Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
 
TMS said:
They are blinded


I hope they do but being a Jew means nothing today.

It is all about faith..
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Gal 4:25-26
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

JERUSALEM which is above is free..
The same city in Revelation is the one we need to have faith in.. not the city of this world, not the man made city.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Salvation is all about faith in Jesus and the Israel nation refused to accept Jesus, so Jesus said...Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
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We can only keep pointing it out brother.
There are people who don't WANT to see, but we should not assume that they all don't.

Have you noticed how Paul says: "Hath God cast away his people?"(Rom 11:1)
He never said "has God cast away the earthly nation of Israel", he actually confirms that God HAS cast it away.
He says: " What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
Romans 11:7.
He is referring to the nation of Israel still in the holy land at the time.
So who are God's people who Paul refers to here?
Well he compared them to the "seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal" (v.4) of Elija's time, so they are people of faith, or at least will be.
Well the free offer of the gospel is to the followers of Satanic Judaism too, but what reason do we have to assume that this remnant of God's people must come from that group?
Could some of them not have come from the children of Jewish Christians or some other group that has stopped identifying as Jewish?
What reason do we have to assume that Paul has told us anything at all about a future restoration of the nation.
Well verses 7,8,9 and 10 tell us the opposite as we could expect, because Jesus already told us in His parable of the wicked husbandmen (Mathew 21:33-41).
So if "boast not against the branches" means that we are not allowed to talk about these things, that would make vs. 7,8,9 and 10 all words of blasphemy, along with Jesus' parable.
Now if we are still looking for the great foundation of political Zionism all we have left here is v.11 "Have they stumbled that they should fall?"
The problem is that we are not left guessing here who "they' reefers to, because Paul has already told us it is God's people "which he foreknew" (v.2) and not any nation.

I have been searching the scriptures as thoroughly as I am able, but I can not find any reason why the children of Rabbinic Judaism should have a Biblical right to the Holy Land or why modern "Israel" should be regarded as a Christian cause.
 
Beekeeper said:
We can only keep pointing it out brother.
There are people who don't WANT to see, but we should not assume that they all don't.

Have you noticed how Paul says: "Hath God cast away his people?"(Rom 11:1)
He never said "has God cast away the earthly nation of Israel", he actually confirms that God HAS cast it away.
He says: " What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
Romans 11:7.
He is referring to the nation of Israel still in the holy land at the time.
So who are God's people who Paul refers to here?
Well he compared them to the "seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal" (v.4) of Elija's time, so they are people of faith, or at least will be.
Well the free offer of the gospel is to the followers of Satanic Judaism too, but what reason do we have to assume that this remnant of God's people must come from that group?
Could some of them not have come from the children of Jewish Christians or some other group that has stopped identifying as Jewish?
What reason do we have to assume that Paul has told us anything at all about a future restoration of the nation.
Well verses 7,8,9 and 10 tell us the opposite as we could expect, because Jesus already told us in His parable of the wicked husbandmen (Mathew 21:33-41).
So if "boast not against the branches" means that we are not allowed to talk about these things, that would make vs. 7,8,9 and 10 all words of blasphemy, along with Jesus' parable.
Now if we are still looking for the great foundation of political Zionism all we have left here is v.11 "Have they stumbled that they should fall?"
The problem is that we are not left guessing here who "they' reefers to, because Paul has already told us it is God's people "which he foreknew" (v.2) and not any nation.

I have been searching the scriptures as thoroughly as I am able, but I can not find any reason why the children of Rabbinic Judaism should have a Biblical right to the Holy Land or why modern "Israel" should be regarded as a Christian cause.
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That is some master level twisting of Scripture.
 
Beekeeper said:
I am sure that you know that the tree belongs to the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
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To which He swore an oath, made them a promise of land, a land called Israel.

Beekeeper said:
We can hate all manner of political and religious institutions, because they are only "its", not persons.
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The Bible says Israel is the apple of God's eye. We are told to bless Israel, no other country on earth did God make that command.
 
TMS said:
They are blinded


I hope they do but being a Jew means nothing today.

It is all about faith..
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Gal 4:25-26
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

JERUSALEM which is above is free..
The same city in Revelation is the one we need to have faith in.. not the city of this world, not the man made city.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Salvation is all about faith in Jesus and the Israel nation refused to accept Jesus, so Jesus said...Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Click to expand...
Read the rest of the truth about Israel. All Israel shall be saved. God's covenant with Abraham has never changed. It includes the land of Israel. Obadiah prophesied that the borders of Israel would be extended. That has yet to happen. Jesus will return to Israel, not America or Britain. Jesus will stand on the Mount of Olives.

Sure, Israel suffered for 2,000 years. It is God's will that the nation be restored. That happened in 1948. Jesus died for you while you were a sinner. God restored Israel even though they were unrighteous. No one kills a tree that has a graft. It will kill the graft as well as the tree. The church is grafted to Israel. It has not replaced her.
 
Gideon300 said:
Read the rest of the truth about Israel. All Israel shall be saved. God's covenant with Abraham has never changed. It includes the land of Israel. Obadiah prophesied that the borders of Israel would be extended. That has yet to happen. Jesus will return to Israel, not America or Britain. Jesus will stand on the Mount of Olives.

Sure, Israel suffered for 2,000 years. It is God's will that the nation be restored. That happened in 1948. Jesus died for you while you were a sinner. God restored Israel even though they were unrighteous. No one kills a tree that has a graft. It will kill the graft as well as the tree. The church is grafted to Israel. It has not replaced her.
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There has always only been one church, one body of believers from the OT to the NT, and the tree is Christ Jesus who is Israel.

Period.
 
ThereRoseaLamb said:
To which He swore an oath, made them a promise of land, a land called Israel.



The Bible says Israel is the apple of God's eye. We are told to bless Israel, no other country on earth did God make that command.
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It is an example for the people today...

By faith Abraham believed
By faith David believed

By faith we need to believe...

Rom 8:24-25
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

We have a hope.... our hope is not in Jesus coming the first time.. that has past.. our hope is the second comming and the mansions in heaven..

The heavenly cannan, the heavenly kingdom. This is our hope..

This present earth will pass away so don't put your hope in man made earthly things.

By faith in Jesus the saved shall inherit the NEW EARTH. The earth made new.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I would not put my hope in the present Earth.. look by faith to the promise of a greater land.
 
ThereRoseaLamb said:
Israel is the apple of Gods eye, that's what the Word says.
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It says God kept Israel as the apple of his eye in the wilderness after their exodus from Egypt. It doesn't say that Israel1948 is the apple of his eye now.

He [God] found him [Jacob] in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. Deuteronomy 32:10​
 
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HeIsHere said:
There has always only been one church, one body of believers from the OT to the NT, and the tree is Christ Jesus who is Israel.

Period.
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You have zero understanding of God's word regarding Israel and you reject anything that contradicts your misunderstanding. Never mind, egg is apparently good for your skin. You'll be scraping plenty off your face when you can no longer ignore the truth.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
It says God kept Israel as the apple of his eye in the wilderness after their exodus from Egypt. It doesn't say that Israel1948 is the apple of his eye now.

He [God] found him [Jacob] in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. Deuteronomy 32:10​
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2 Sam. "Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,"

“And I will bring my people Israel back from exile” (Amos 9:14)

“I will take you for my wife forever. I will take you for my wife in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love, and in mercy. I will take you for my wife in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord” (Hosea 2:19-20)

“For this is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘…for whoever touches you touches the apple of His eye’” (Zechariah 2:8).

“The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying, ‘I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness’” (Jeremiah 31:3).



“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of My hands; your walls are ever before Me” (Isaiah 49:15–16).

“This is what the Lord says, He who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—the Lord Almighty is His name: ‘Only if these decrees vanish from My sight,’ declares the Lord, ‘will Israel ever cease being a nation before Me’” (Jeremiah 31:35–36).
 
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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
It says God kept Israel as the apple of his eye in the wilderness after their exodus from Egypt. It doesn't say that Israel1948 is the apple of his eye now.

He [God] found him [Jacob] in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. Deuteronomy 32:10​
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I think that you are unteachable. God's word is crystal clear. Zechariah 2:8 was written long after Deuteronomy.
 
Gideon300 said:
No one kills a tree that has a graft. It will kill the graft as well as the tree. The church is grafted to Israel. It has not replaced her.
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Jesus was with God in the beginning and all things were made by Him (John 1), so the "church" of Jesus can not be a graft.
It is the original root and came long before Abraham, who was grafted into Jesus by his faith.
Israel is of course the name of Abraham's grandson.
So Jesus the original root comes in the form of a man born king of the house of Israel.
Yet some think He has no right to define His house of Israel?
His disciples are all Israelites.
How can this possibly be called a graft?
Jesus was first, Jacob came after.
 
Beekeeper said:
Jesus was with God in the beginning and all things were made by Him (John 1), so the "church" of Jesus can not be a graft.
.
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Can and are...
'
Romans 11


13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[b] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
 
ThereRoseaLamb said:
Can and are...
'
Romans 11


13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[b] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
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We are talking about two different things.
Gentile believers were grafted in to Christ, no argument there.
It happened in the Old Testament too.
Jesus is the root of the tree. That is my point, and don't pretend to miss it.
What kind of "church" would be defined by Gentiles anyway? Yours?
If it is not defined by Jesus it is not the Israel of God.
 
ThereRoseaLamb said:
“For this is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘…for whoever touches you touches the apple of His eye’” (Zechariah 2:8).
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ah I didn't scroll down far enough to see that one in my search. You obviously ignore the rest of that prophecy that reveals it's talking about the day when the holy nation of Israel was born from above in the day of Pentecost, and then may nations were added to it.

And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. Zechariah 2:11​
 
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