Loss of salvation???

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Caveman said:
HebrewGospel.com does point to Hebrew Sephardic manuscripts that include several (not all) NT books as originally written in Hebrew; also Paul heard Messiah speak to him in the Hebrew language on the road to Damascus (why not in Greek?).
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Because Paul was an educated pharisee who understood Hebrew. The common folk did not, so there would have been no reason to write gospel accounts in Hebrew. Matthew may have recorded some things in Aramaic that were later included in his gospel, but there is no evidence that the gospel of Matthew was originally done in Hebrew. Just speculation.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Because Paul was an educated pharisee who understood Hebrew. The common folk did not, so there would have been no reason to write gospel accounts in Hebrew. Matthew may have composed some initial writings in Aramaic, but there is no evidence that the gospel of Matthew was. Just speculation.
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Good one, Bro! Well said! I agree!
 
Caveman said:
This biased scholarly consensus view heavily weighs the dominate language at the time the NT was written and also the many thousands of NT Greek surviving manuscripts, while ignoring the NT is linguistically Hebraic in its construct.
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The disciples spoke Aramaic, so no wonder that their oral recollections were imbued with Semitic culture. Those were later committed to writing in Greek, so again no wonder those things got carried over into Greek.
 
Caveman said:
We know Josephus wrote the History of the Jews 1,000 yrs before the first surviving book was found. The same with the Hebrew Sephardic manuscripts...they are the first surviving manuscripts of the original Hebrew NT from which the Greek NT translation was written.
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Pure speculation, and bad at that. Shem Tov's gospel of Matthew was most certainly a forgery.
 
Caveman said:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

In the Hebrew Sephardic manuscripts this verse says "to do whatever Moses says to do" You get a skewed wrong idea from the Greek here wouldn't you say? AND you get what Christ actually said in the Hebrew.
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What the pharisees would have told the people would have been what they read out of the books of Moses during public readings of scripture. So Jesus was perfectly right in telling the common folk to listen to what they, the pharisees, told them because it was Moses' words. The pharisees would have read aloud one line of scripture in Hebrew (3 verses if from the prophets) and a targumist (interpreter) would translate it into Aramaic. The fact that targumists were used proves that the people couldn't speak Hebrew.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Because Paul was an educated pharisee who understood Hebrew. The common folk did not, so there would have been no reason to write gospel accounts in Hebrew. Matthew may have recorded some things in Aramaic that were later included in his gospel, but there is no evidence that the gospel of Matthew was originally done in Hebrew. Just speculation.
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You're the one speculating...

"so there would have been no reason to write gospel accounts in Hebrew"

There was every reason to write the NT in Hebrew...The first converts to Christianity were Jews...that's reason enough.

IF the NT was written in Greek originally...how do you explain such a Greeked up mess as:

Mathew 23:1-3

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

In the Hebrew Sephardic manuscripts this verse says "to do whatever Moses says to do" You get a skewed wrong idea from the Greek here wouldn't you say? AND you get what Christ actually said in the Hebrew.

AND

The NT is rife in Hebraic thought idiom, poetry, chiasms ect through and through...

AND

Greek is a Meism NT; whereas the Hebrew is Christ centric. NT..

COMPARE AND CONTRAST

Salvation from the abstract me centric Greek NT lens is based on your response, your (continued) faithfulness, Belief and loyalty...the New Covenant was provided because we are faithless...He is Faithfull.

The Hebraic NT lens has the onus on our Kinsman Redeemer who ALONE provided Atonement for ungodly men, so they now stand Justified by the works of Christ on the cross and His free gift of Atonement (Justification).

If your salvation depends on you at any time, you are screwed...BUT the Good News it's Not; it hinges on the Finished work of Christ and His righteousness imputed to us.

Greek emphasizes my faith, my covenantal loyalty and so that my Salvation hinges on my faithfulness...whereas the Hebraic view is the opposite...it emphasizes God's Faithfulness, His Covenantal loyalty who acted on our behalf (ALONE) as our Kinsman Redeemer.

Western Greekyness just loves having "you" be the qualifier to receive "your Salvation" whereas the Hebraic view has "our Salvation" guaranteed by the qualified Life of Messiah.

Rest in what He Alone has accomplished at the cross...Atonement for ungodly men (Justified) with the Promise of a God Who CAN NOT lie..."those HE justified He will glorify"...no Greeky meism qualifiers that people love so much...
 
Caveman said:
IF the NT was written in Greek originally...how do you explain such a Greeked up mess as:

Mathew 23:1-3

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

In the Hebrew Sephardic manuscripts this verse says "to do whatever Moses says to do" You get a skewed wrong idea from the Greek here wouldn't you say? AND you get what Christ actually said in the Hebrew.
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It's not a Greeked up mess. What is a mess is the Hebrew Roots mindset that is driving this madness that can't even make sense of that passage as I did in a previous post.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Pure speculation, and bad at that. Shem Tov's gospel of Matthew was most certainly a forgery.
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The Hebrew Sephardic manuscripts are not forgeries. HebrewGospel.com will provide you the Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts; and they will expose the Greek a NT translation.

In Mathew Jesus in the Greek and English was obviously saying do whatever the Pharisees say, but that is not what He meant, He meant do what Moses says.

Moses will always say what God instructed the people to do, but the Pharisees would say things like do what I say (which is what Jesus was supposedly in the Greek and English meant) but they would not always be reading out the Torah...they would be telling people to obey their Parasitical laws...which is why the Hebrew got this right and exposed the Greek to be in error error error.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
This is just beyond dumb.
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It's obvious you love a Greek Salvation Gospel that puts you as the determinative factor....if you are faithful, if you believe, if you are loyal...that's' the Greek Gospel.

You can have it, where men are determinative to the Salvation process.

I will rest in the finished work of Christ that the Hebrew Gospel emphasizes; where He is central and His Salvation is Secure...not dependent on me or you!
 
What is likely the first targumists is mentioned in the book of Nehemiah. The Aramaic-speaking Jews who returned from Babylon had lost the ability to speak Hebrew after 70 years of captivity. At the 1st public reading in Jerusalem after returning from exile knowledgeable men who could speak Hebrew interpreted scripture for them. This was over 500 years before Christ

And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people) , and when he opened it, all the people stood up: And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground. Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place. So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. Nehemiah 8:5-8​
​
 
Caveman said:
It's obvious you love a Greek Salvation Gospel that puts you as the determinative factor....if you are faithful, if you believe, if you are loyal...that's' the Greek Gospel.

You can have it, where men are determinative to the Salvation process.

I will rest in the finished work of Christ that the Hebrew Gospel emphasizes; where He is central and His Salvation is Secure...not dependent on me or you!
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I didn't realize the Hebrew Roots crowd promoted a lawless salvation.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
This is just beyond dumb.
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When a person is indoctrinated to such a degree that they can immediately dismiss out of hand any evidence (which is clearly there) contrary to the scholarly dominate narrative and their own doctrinal dogma, it's easy to not think at all and just flow with the prevailing winds even if there are major holes in their narrative.

Did you also take the covid shot(s)?
Did you accept the 50 intelligence officers who signed off on Hunters laptop as a Russian operation?
Did you ever believe the narrative the border was secure the entire 4 yrs of Biden presidency?
ECT ECT ECT??
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I didn't realize the Hebrew Roots crowd promoted a lawless salvation.
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As a New Covenant Believer..

I died with Christ and am not under the Mosaic Law but under the Law of Messiah.

You have a works-based salvation, because to some degree it is dependent on you...

I am resting in what the Lord did for me on the cross (Atonement-=Justification) and He works to transform me into His image while I breath; so I am not under Mosaic Law...I am in Christ....

if I sin, I confess it to the Lord and am restore relationally into fellowship...but my Salvation is secured in Him not dependent on me.
 
Caveman said:
As a New Covenant Believer..

I died with Christ and am not under the Mosaic Law but under the Law of Messiah.

You have a works-based salvation, because to some degree it is dependent on you...

I am resting in what the Lord did for me on the cross (Atonement-=Justification) and He works to transform me into His image while I breath; so I am not under Mosaic Law...I am in Christ....

if I sin, I confess it to the Lord and am restore relationally into fellowship...but my Salvation is secured in Him not dependent on me.
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Same with me, but I believe I have to obey his voice.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Same with me, but I believe I have to obey his voice.
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If you die before you confess your sin are you still saved or Opps to Hell with you.? Obeying God is what His kids should do, but you don't kill your kids if they disobey you (neither does God) if they are your kids. We are His kids by what He did at the Cross (Atonement= Justification); so if I die before I confess my sin I am still in Christ and secure Forever!

God is not mocked for sure...if you willingly go on sinning you will pay a price here and loss of reward there, BUT you do not lose your Salvation if you have ever been His kid...you just get your butt kicked and will be sad for loss of reward there.
 
Caveman said:
"But IMO there is more going on in the NT overall than may be understood from just Paleo-Hebrew". (I agree)

HebrewGospel.com does point to Hebrew Sephardic manuscripts that include several (not all) NT books as originally written in Hebrew; also Paul heard Messiah speak to him in the Hebrew language on the road to Damascus (why not in Greek?).

This biased scholarly consensus view heavily weighs the dominate language at the time the NT was written and also the many thousands of NT Greek surviving manuscripts, while ignoring the NT is linguistically Hebraic in its construct. Thousands of surviving NT Greek manuscripts does not equate to original except that they want it so.

Scholars have tried very hard to obscure even the hint (maybe conceding Mathew) the NT was originally written in Hebrew and then translated into Greek. I accept the fact that God has always gone to the Jew first and then the gentiles. The OT and NT were written in Hebrew and as Hebrewgospel.com shows there were NT Hebrew manuscripts that would affirm this precept.

We know Josephus wrote the History of the Jews 1,000 yrs before the first surviving book was found. The same with the Hebrew Sephardic manuscripts...they are the first surviving manuscripts of the original Hebrew NT from which the Greek NT translation was written.

The OT Greek translation took OT Hebrew and stylized it into a Greek linguistic construct, but not many fools would ever say the Greek Septuagint predates OT Hebrew...

The Greek NT is obviously a translation from the Hebrew...the evidence of its Hebraic originality is in its Hebraic chiasms, idioms and Covenantal imagery. The Hebrew NT is written in a Conventual relationship construct whereas the Greek is abstract in its concepts that shift the emphasis to our faith not His Faithfulness.

Hebraic vs Greek mindset...a lot of misunderstanding and misinterpretation could be avoided if we viewed the NT via the Hebraic lens....not the Greek lens.

Hebraic worldview: Concrete, relational, covenantal.
Greek worldview: Abstract, juridical, metaphysical.

The Greek for instance in John 1 says the Word, the Word, the Word (abstract), whereas the Hebrew Sephardic manuscripts say the Son, the Son, the Son (Covenantal).

Greek emphasizes my faith, my covenantal loyalty and so that my Salvation hinges on my faithfulness...whereas the Hebraic view is the opposite...it emphasizes God's Faithfulness, His Covenantal loyalty who acted on our behalf (ALONE) as our Kinsman Redeemer.

Western Greekyness just loves having "you" be the qualifier to receive "your Salvation" whereas the Hebraic view has "our Salvation" guaranteed by the qualified Life of Messiah.

Rest in what He Alone has accomplished at the cross...Atonement for ungodly men (Justified) with the Promise of a God Who CAN NOT lie..."those HE justified He will glorify"...no Greeky meism qualifiers that people love so much...

Problems with NT Greek Translation:

Mathew 23:1-3

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

In the Hebrew Sephardic manuscripts this verse says "to do whatever Moses says to do" You get a skewed wrong idea from the Greek here wouldn't you say? AND you get what Christ actually said in the Hebrew.

Salvation from the abstract me centric Greek NT lens is based on your response, your (continued) faithfulness, Belief and loyalty...the New Covenant was provided because we are faithless...He is Faithfull.

The Hebraic NT lens has the onus on our Kinsman Redeemer who ALONE provided Atonement for ungodly men, so they now stand Justified by the works of Christ on the cross and His free gift of Atonement (Justification).

If your salvation depends on you at any time, you are screwed...BUT the Good News it's Not; it hinges on the Finished work of Christ and His righteousness imputed to us.

Those He Justified He Will Glorify…(ATONEMENT)

Our Eternal Salvation:

Greek lens = me centric
Hebrew lens = Christ centric
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Honestly, most of what you wrote reads like personal opinion repeated from earlier posts. Copy and paste is a great tool but not when the original is unconvincing. And volume of opinion is just distraction and potentially, even likely, just more error.

I asked for a direct quote from HebrewGospel.com, and only received restated claims. I didn't see HG say what you're claiming about other NT documents - only Matthew - and I'm familiar with some of the discussions re: Matthew.

The idea that the Greek NT is ‘me-centric’ simply isn’t true. Many if not most of us read the Greek text as thoroughly Christ-centered.

Hebrew idiom and grammatical structures don't prove Hebrew originals. When someone understands the value of chiastic parallelism, for example, they can structure that into other languages as would a Hebrew do (and did) in Greek.

Why not just stick to discussions with Scripture and provide insights you may learn from whatever sources? For instance, some of Benner's word studies seemed interesting as I recall.

In the end, every denomination claims to have the answers, and it just turns into their theological agenda and defense of it.
 
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