Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

The Bible teaches that we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, as stated in 1 Peter 1:1-2. This means that God does not randomly or unconditionally choose who will be saved, nor does He force anyone to believe. Instead, God, from eternity, perfectly knows how every person would freely respond to His drawing, His enlightenment, and His conviction of sin. Based on that foreknown response to the grace of His Son Jesus Christ, God elects the believer before he ever enters this world. This is not a violation of free will because God’s foreknowledge does not cause the choice. It simply knows the choice.

This understanding fits perfectly with Romans 8:29 in the King James Bible where it says, For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. Predestination in Scripture always flows from foreknowledge. God first foreknows those who would believe through their own free and genuine response to His grace. Then He predestines those believers to be conformed to the image of His Son and to receive the blessings that follow salvation. God’s election is therefore in harmony with human freedom, not against it.

Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 strengthen this truth by showing that those who worship the beast never had their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Their names were absent because God already knew they would freely reject Him. In the same way, God foreknew who would respond to His grace and therefore chose them in Christ before the foundation of the world.

So yes, I do believe God elects a believer before he ever comes into this world, but this is based on God’s foreknowledge of the positive choice we would make toward Him, not because God forced us into choosing only the good. Free will continues to operate under God’s drawing, His enlightenment, and His convicting work, and election harmonizes perfectly with that freedom.
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You Shirley love the method of eisegeis to interpret scripture, don't you? Where does Rom 8:29 say that God foreknew certain acts or things of people? What the passage is saying that God [personally, intimately, covenantally and eternally] KNEW those whom He predestined.

 

[HeIsHere]

“Regeneration is the power to believe the gospel unto salvation.”


Things the Bible does NOT teach.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

See the following verse. That should clear it up for you. You took liberty to assume a doctrine those verses do not state or support -
something that you manufactured. Notice in the verse below, it states, "hath chosen you to salvation", not "knew that you would believe"

[2Th 2:13,14 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, God chose Israel as a holy nation, but they ended not being holy by sinning. So when God says He chooses a life for us (as a part of salvation), that does not mean we will always respond every second or moment of our life or that we will be perfect mindless robots of doing only good by the Spirit. God can move in our life and transform our heart and do only good through us, but we have to surrender to Him according to His Word. It's why we are told to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life. It's why Galatians 6:8-9 says we are not to faint in well doing as a part of sowing to the Spirit, which reaps eternal life. The fact that you and many other believers are not mindless robots of doing only good is proof of man's free will is still at play in our walk with God. Unless of course you believe sin is also the will of God, too.




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[Bible_Highlighter]

You Shirley love the method of eisegeis to interpret scripture, don't you? Where does Rom 8:29 say that God foreknew certain acts or things of people? What the passage is saying that God [personally, intimately, covenantally and eternally] KNEW those whom He predestined.

You see words like predestined as if that was some kind of Calvinistic thing. That simply is not the case if you read and believe 1 Peter 1:1-2. True regenerate born again believers are elected based on God the Father's foreknowledge.



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[Rufus]

See my post here.



Deuteronomy 7:6 and Deuteronomy 9:7

Chosen:
Deuteronomy 7:6
The Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself.

Sin in the same narrative:
Deuteronomy 9:7
Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you.

Only two chapters later God calls them rebellious and sinful.

So the word "chosen" does not mean that they will perfectly do His will and live a sanctified life by God's power.

In other words, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is saying that the CALL of the gospel is that God has chosen a person for salvation THROUGH the process of living holy through the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit and a belief of the truth (believing the Holy Bible correctly).
This does not mean that every believer who is chosen to a life of salvation through the Spirit will automatically endure to the end and enter into the Kingdom. While the Lord can be persuasive, God never violates our free will so that our only choices are either perfect goodness or constant evil. If that were the case, then believers would become perfect on day one of their sanctification and would never struggle with sin. Yet we are told in 2 Corinthians 7:1 to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This instruction makes no sense if Calvinism or determinism were true. We are not puppets programmed to do only good or to do only evil as if our choices were foreordained by God in such a rigid and mechanical way. The Bible presents a real call to holiness that requires real obedience from a believer who still has real freedom.
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Under the unconditional and unilateral promises of the New Covenant it does!

And how can God who rescues helpless sinners from the dominion of darkness violate anyone's "freewill"? In your world, it appears it would be much better if God didn't rescue anyone, including the ancient Hebrews in Egypt. You seem to think sinners would be far better off left to the evil devices of their own very corrupt hearts, which would include their volition.

 

[rogerg]

See my post here.



Deuteronomy 7:6 and Deuteronomy 9:7

Chosen:
Deuteronomy 7:6
The Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself.

Sin in the same narrative:
Deuteronomy 9:7
Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you.

Only two chapters later God calls them rebellious and sinful.

So the word "chosen" does not mean that they will perfectly do His will and live a sanctified life by God's power.

In other words, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is saying that the CALL of the gospel is that God has chosen a person for salvation THROUGH the process of living holy through the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit and a belief of the truth (believing the Holy Bible correctly).
This does not mean that every believer who is chosen to a life of salvation through the Spirit will automatically endure to the end and enter into the Kingdom. While the Lord can be persuasive, God never violates our free will so that our only choices are either perfect goodness or constant evil. If that were the case, then believers would become perfect on day one of their sanctification and would never struggle with sin. Yet we are told in 2 Corinthians 7:1 to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This instruction makes no sense if Calvinism or determinism were true. We are not puppets programmed to do only good or to do only evil as if our choices were foreordained by God in such a rigid and mechanical way. The Bible presents a real call to holiness that requires real obedience from a believer who still has real freedom.






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You confuse two different covenants. Deut is Old Covenant; Thess, New Covenant. Each having different stipulations and requirements. You shouldn't look at them as being the same nor one an extension of the other.


[Heb 8:9-13 KJV]
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

 

[Rufus]

Again, God chose Israel as a holy nation, but they ended not being holy by sinning. So when God says He chooses a life for us (as a part of salvation), that does not mean we will always respond every second or moment of our life or that we will be perfect mindless robots of doing only good by the Spirit. God can move in our life and transform our heart and do only good through us, but we have to surrender to Him according to His Word. It's why we are told to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life. It's why Galatians 6:8-9 says we are not to faint in well doing as a part of sowing to the Spirit, which reaps eternal life. The fact that you and many other believers are not mindless robots of doing only good is proof of man's free will is still at play in our walk with God. Unless of course you believe sin is also the will of God, too.

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Was Israel whom God chose to be a holy nation under the Old or New Covenants?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

“Regeneration is the power to believe the gospel unto salvation.”


Things the Bible does NOT teach.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Romans 5:2 says that we have ACCESS to God's grace by faith, not a regeneration.

Romans 5:2 KJV
"By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."




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[HeIsHere]

The Bible teaches that we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, as stated in 1 Peter 1:1-2. This means that God does not randomly or unconditionally choose who will be saved, nor does He force anyone to believe. Instead, God, from eternity, perfectly knows how every person would freely respond to His drawing, His enlightenment, and His conviction of sin. Based on that foreknown response to the grace of His Son Jesus Christ, God elects the believer before he ever enters this world. This is not a violation of free will because God’s foreknowledge does not cause the choice. It simply knows the choice.

This understanding fits perfectly with Romans 8:29 in the King James Bible where it says, For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. Predestination in Scripture always flows from foreknowledge. God first foreknows those who would believe through their own free and genuine response to His grace. Then He predestines those believers to be conformed to the image of His Son and to receive the blessings that follow salvation. God’s election is therefore in harmony with human freedom, not against it.

Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 strengthen this truth by showing that those who worship the beast never had their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Their names were absent because God already knew they would freely reject Him. In the same way, God foreknew who would respond to His grace and therefore chose them in Christ before the foundation of the world.

So yes, I do believe God elects a believer before he ever comes into this world, but this is based on God’s foreknowledge of the positive choice we would make toward Him, not because God forced us into choosing only the good. Free will continues to operate under God’s drawing, His enlightenment, and His convicting work, and election harmonizes perfectly with that freedom.




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Agree God foreknows all.

Election generally speaking in scripture is to service.

 

[rogerg]

Again, God chose Israel as a holy nation, but they ended not being holy by sinning. So when God says He chooses a life for us (as a part of salvation), that does not mean we will always respond every second or moment of our life or that we will be perfect mindless robots of doing only good by the Spirit. God can move in our life and transform our heart and do only good through us, but we have to surrender to Him according to His Word. It's why we are told to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life. It's why Galatians 6:8-9 says we are not to faint in well doing as a part of sowing to the Spirit, which reaps eternal life. The fact that you and many other believers are not mindless robots of doing only good is proof of man's free will is still at play in our walk with God. Unless of course you believe sin is also the will of God, too.
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Did you read the "I will put" and "I will write" by God in Hebrews regarding the New Covenant? What do you think that means?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

You confuse two different covenants. Deut is Old Covenant; Thess, New Covenant. Each having different stipulations and requirements. You shouldn't look at them as being the same nor one an extension of the other.


[Heb 8:9-13 KJV]
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Right, we are given the Holy Spirit to obey, but that does not mean you are mindless slave puppet to do only good. Do you know of any believer who does only good and says they cannot help but to do only good and to think only good?

What on Earth do you think 2 Corinthians 7:1 says?

It says, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Why fear God if you are chosen and elect to salvation no matter what you do?
Is this fear of God for what He can only do to us in this life alone?
Well, unbelievers can suffer the same fate as believers.
No, Jesus clarifies that fear not the one who can kill the body, but fear the One (JESUS) who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire). See Matthew 13:41-42, and John 8:34-35.






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[Rufus]

@Magenta ; I see what you mean: but don't we all have the free will to believe and trust in JESUS, in the first place?

Man's will is in total bondage to his sinful nature -- just like God's will is to his holy nature! So...explain to me how either will is free in the libertarian sense?

 

[rogerg]

Right, we are given the Holy Spirit to obey, but that does not mean you are mindless slave puppet to do only good. Do you know of any believer who does only good and says they cannot help but to do only good and to think only good?

What on Earth do you think 2 Corinthians 7:1 says?

It says, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Why fear God if you are chosen and elect to salvation no matter what you do?
Fear. him for He can do to you in this life?
Well, unbelievers can suffer the same fate as believers.
No, Jesus clarifies that fear not the one who can kill the body, but fear the One (JESUS) who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire). See Matthew 13:41-42, and John 8:34-35.






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Read post 25,630

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Was Israel whom God chose to be a holy nation under the Old or New Covenants?

Was God angry when Israel sinned? Yes, or no. Is God angry at the wicked every day? Psalms 7:11.
In Calvinism being angry at the wicked does not make any sense because God decreed them to be wicked as their only fate.
The god of Calvinism is like the Incredible Hulk with rage problems. Why doesn't He just snap His fingers and make them to believe and thereby stop being angry at the wicked? It's because God does not operate in the way that Calvinists suggest.




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[Bible_Highlighter]

Read post 25,630

Uh, that does not address 2 Corinthians 7:1 in what it says.
Oh, and by the way, what do you think 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says?
What about Jonah 3?



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[rogerg]

What on Earth do you think 2 Corinthians 7:1 says?

It says, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Why fear God if you are chosen and elect to salvation no matter what you do?

They are being edified regarding the tenets of being a good Christian. It had nothing to do with them becoming saved.
They were ALREADY saved:

[2Co 7:1 KJV] 1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[Rufus]

I’m glad @Magenta believes I ascribe to the natural man. As well as believing I contradict the Bible, rewrite scripture and have a lack of understanding. She’s completely entitled to her opinion. It’s ok she believes that about us “FW’ers”. I wish her no harm. The only good thing out of being ascribed to the natural man is perhaps she will use some natural ingredients to make this natural man a homemade pie lol. I’ll save you a slice lol.

Knowing my dear sister Magenta, I'd say she would much prefer feasting on the Bread of Life that came down from heaven.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Did you read the "I will put" and "I will write" by God in Hebrews regarding the New Covenant? What do you think that means?

I believe that the only way a person can truly do what is good is by the power of God working in them. God can help us obey Him, but this is not some kind of hostile takeover where we become mindless slaves or puppets. I have never heard any Calvinist or Christian describe their life with anything even close to the following scenario:

Bob: “Hey Ricky.”

Ricky: “Yeah?”

Bob: “I blacked out last night and apparently I was handing out gospel tracts and helping the poor without even knowing it.”

Ricky: “How is that possible? And how do you even know this?”

Bob: “Martha has video footage on her phone of me doing it, but I have no memory of any of it.”

Ricky: “Woah. That is wild. I had something similar happen.”

“The other day I blacked out and cannot remember anything. But my mom said she saw me reading the Bible all day.”

Bob: “That is wild. Truly God forces us to do good just like He says in His Word.”



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[Bible_Highlighter]

They are being edified regarding the tenets of being a good Christian. It had nothing to do with them becoming saved.
They were ALREADY saved:

[2Co 7:1 KJV] 1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

You are isolating one set of words at the expense of the other ones. You are missing the point of what the verse says. It says let US cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. It does not say that God forces you to cleanse you of the filthiness of the flesh and spirit. If that was the case, then you would be a mindless slave puppet of only doing good, right?



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[rogerg]

You are isolating one set of words at the expense of the other ones. You are missing the point of what the verse says. It says let US cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. It does not say that God forces you to cleanse you of the filthiness of the flesh and spirit. If that was the case, then you would be a mindless slave puppet of only doing good, right?
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If God gives the below to someone, then everything else will follow after/from it

10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: