Loss of salvation???

[Musicmaster]

Paul baptized a few folks (noted in 1 Corinthians 1:14-16) and did not teach water baptism was to be discontinued or ignored.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:3-6)

The Lord teaches water baptism thru the Apostle Peter:

Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days. (Acts 10:43-48)

Some want to disobey the Lord claiming water baptism is not required so we'll see where these folks end up in eternity for ignoring the teachings of Jesus on this topic.

That's an argument from silence fallacy.

None of the twelve ever claimed to be THE apostles to the Gentiles. Paul, on the other hand, laid claim to that very thing, and his gospel to the Gentiles and some Jews was this:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 — Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

As you can see in what IS actually stated in Paul's reminding the Corinthians of the gospel he preached to them, water baptism was not at all a feature of requirement in his gospel of grace that he exlicitly stated is the means for salvation under his gospel of grace. If water baptism were still a requirement for salvation, then you should rip all of Pauls epistles out of your Bible and stick to only the Kingdom Gospel in an attempt to earn your salvation. It's either grace or its works. It cannot be both in this dispensation of grace given that we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves but is a gift of God.

You see, I don't have to appeal to silence to say that. One either accepts or rejectsnwhat is stated in scripture.

MM

You see, the silence in scripture cannot be a basis upon which to build a doctrine, but it is indeed a useful tool for shining a glaring light upon injections made to the scriptures. Failure to rightly divide the word of truth leads to the errors in understanding from which you are currently speaking.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Where did I say the saved can become unsealed from the Holy Spirit and experience replaces scripture?

I didn't say you stated that. It's the only outcome that can possibly be if loss of salvation were at all possible. When a person is saved and sealed, then tonremove the salvation from them means that they would not longer be sealed. The scriptures nowhere speak of the dawned being sealed by Holy Spirit, right? If there is such a verse, I would very much appreciate a reference. The same goes for the new birth. How does one become un-born again since that's the only alternative if .oss of salvation were even possible.

You see, the loss of salvation gang must assume a number of dichotomies into their warped interpretations of scripture to try and inject any measure of reason into their statements.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Don't let scriptures like these get in the way of your making excuses for sinful behavior

View attachment 281994

You really do seem to enjoy fallacious injections of things that are not at all associative. I did not ever justify the commission of sin.

That was pathetically weak and feeble, to say the least.

MM

 

[mailmandan]

I totally reject that idea

In regard to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels water with being born out of a mother’s womb and with flesh based on the answer of Nicodemus to Jesus. Simply stated in that case, two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth accompanied by amniotic "water" and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

Now if "water" is defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

 

[mailmandan]

Don't let scriptures like these get in the way of your making excuses for sinful behavior

View attachment 281994

Do you teach sinless perfection? (1 John 1:8-10)

 

[Musicmaster]

Do you teach sinless perfection? (1 John 1:8-10)

The loss of salvation gang has no other assumption left to them than to believe they are living sinless perfection to believe that they or anyone else can lose their salvation. That inevitably leads to them also believing they earned their salvation on the basis of their works through the self effort of water baptism and any other works-based requirements they may believe is a part of salvation.

Depressing, isn't it...for them to live in the fear of not knowing if they are saved because of them possibly not asserting enough daily effort in retaining their salvation, those who believe they are still sinners and yet not knowing where that line exists over which they may have already over-stepped? They cannot define it. Some will say that they haven't murdered anyone or robbed a bank while completely overlooking all the other plethora of sins they commit daily. "How good is good enough," is the question they can never possibly answer.

MM

 

[mailmandan]

The loss of salvation gang has no other assumption left to them than to believe they are living sinless perfection to believe that they or anyone else can lose their salvation. That inevitably leads to them also believing they earned their salvation on the basis of their works through the self effort of water baptism and any other works-based requirements they may believe is a part of salvation.

Depressing, isn't it...for them to live in the fear of not knowing if they are saved because of them possibly not asserting enough daily effort in retaining their salvation, those who believe they are still sinners and yet not knowing where that line exists over which they may have already over-stepped. They cannot define it. Some will say that they haven't murdered anyone or robbed a bank while completely overlooking all the other plethora of sins they commit daily. "How good is good enough," is the question they can never possibly answer.

MM

Depressing indeed! Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life. Prior to my conversion several years ago (when I was still trusting in works/self-performance for salvation instead of in Jesus Christ alone) I was always asking myself, "how good is good enough." I had absolutely no assurance of salvation and was miserable! I will take the gospel of grace over self any day.

The gospel according to SELF.

SELF promotion
SELF righteousness
SELF preservation

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Now if "water" is defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

It sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. John came announcing the kingdom God through water baptism, and he said a baptism of spirit was coming. So in the context of the kingdom of God, which Jesus was talking about to Nicodemus, two baptisms were mentioned. So according to your idea Jesus would have said born of baptism and baptism.

Water baptism isn't the source or means of being born again, it is the doorway through which obedience to God's voice is expressed. Throughout the bible God dealt with men through physical phenomena like sacrifices, washings, altars, blowing of trumpets, anointing with oil, etc. Water baptism is simply a continuation of that tradition.

 

[Musicmaster]

Do you realize Paul's mystery given only to him is so improbable? the original 12 lived year, Jesus the MASTER for over 3 years, do you think they knew less than Paul the servant? Jesus said clearly he never spoke in secret but in the Open to everyone, have you forgotten? have you forgotten also that it is Peter that was appointed by God to go to the gentiles? yes you have

I don't have to think anything in and of myself. I simply read scripture for what IT says. Paul was/is THE apostle to the Gentiles. To assume the twelve were apostles to the Gentiles is to disbelieve what scripture says AND to inject eisegetical doctrines into the contexts that aren't there, as is a common practice among many Evangelicals who daudle in replacement theologies.

MM

 

[mailmandan]

It sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. John came announcing the kingdom God through water baptism, and he said a baptism of spirit was coming. So in the context of the kingdom of God, which Jesus was talking about to Nicodemus, two baptisms were mentioned. So according to your idea Jesus would have said born of baptism and baptism.

Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" and NOT born of baptism and the Spirit.

Water baptism isn't the source or means of being born again, it is the doorway through which obedience to God's voice is expressed. Throughout the bible God dealt with men through physical phenomena like sacrifices, washings, altars, blowing of trumpets, anointing with oil, etc. Water baptism is simply a continuation of that tradition.

Water baptism certainly is not the source or means (reality) of being born again but it is a picture of the reality.

 

[Musicmaster]

Do you realize Paul's mystery given only to him is so improbable? the original 12 lived year, Jesus the MASTER for over 3 years, do you think they knew less than Paul the servant? Jesus said clearly he never spoke in secret but in the Open to everyone, have you forgotten? have you forgotten also that it is Peter that was appointed by God to go to the gentiles? yes you have

Let's see what scripture says about your assumption of implausibility:

Acts 8:1 — And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Hmm. That poses a problem to your assumptions, huh? Then we have this:

Acts 11:19 — Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

This isn't a matter of my saying that I told you so, but rather the scriptures saying it. Would you agree?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" and NOT born of baptism and the Spirit.

Water baptism certainly is not the source or means (reality) of being born again but it is a picture of the reality.

Good point. Getting ceremonially wet can only be symbolic given that we are not under the Law. The ceremonial items under the Law had meaning back then as expressions of their faith, but now is overshadowed by the unmerited favor extended to us as a gift not at all earned, with the only righteousness of which we may speak is strictly in terms of what is imputed unto us, which is His righteousness rather than anything we may boast about of our own.

MM

 

[Jordon]

I don't have to think anything in and of myself. I simply read scripture for what IT says. Paul was/is THE apostle to the Gentiles. To assume the twelve were apostles to the Gentiles is to disbelieve what scripture says AND to inject eisegetical doctrines into the contexts that aren't there, as is a common practice among many Evangelicals who daudle in replacement theologies.

MM

I'm sure he was chosen to be one wasn't he. ?

But no doubt you won't answer because you want to ignore me for no good reason other than your own.

 

[Genez]

I didn't say you stated that. It's the only outcome that can possibly be if loss of salvation were at all possible. When a person is saved and sealed, then tonremove the salvation from them means that they would not longer be sealed. The scriptures nowhere speak of the dawned being sealed by Holy Spirit, right? If there is such a verse, I would very much appreciate a reference. The same goes for the new birth. How does one become un-born again since that's the only alternative if .oss of salvation were even possible.

You see, the loss of salvation gang must assume a number of dichotomies into their warped interpretations of scripture to try and inject any measure of reason into their statements.

MM

Just a note about being sealed with the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13)

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, ​

the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, ​

the promised Holy Spirit.​

The Greek states that we have been permanently sealed with the Spirit!

Sphragizo does mean "you were stamped with a seal". It indicates the deal is DONE. ​

It never changes. You are SAVED eternally! It is in the form of 'aorist passive indicative'. ​

It is a culmunative aorist. As a result of being saved we are stamped with a seal. ​

The passive voice means the believer . . . at the moment he is saved . . . doesn't earn ​

or deserve or work for salvation. ​

If we do not earn or deserve it?

What could change to make us not deserve it?

.......

 

[HigherGospel]

That's an argument from silence fallacy.

That exactly what the gay peoples claim when they argue that being gay is OK with Jesus because He did not specifically address it

So you good with gayness too?

Paul baptized a few folks (noted in 1 Corinthians 1:14-16) showing that Paul was being led of the Lord to be involved in water baptisms

Better luck on the next topic bud.

I did not ever justify the commission of sin.

But you are not speaking out against either as the Lord does in His Word.

Maybe some day you can grow up spiritually and accept all that the Lord says in His Word!

Do you teach sinless perfection? (1 John 1:8-10)

Do you preach we're all sinners and can't stop sinning because God made all people to be sinners when they were born?

That's what the false teachers claim, and so they also claim they will always be sinners because they are of their father the devil.

I go by what God says in His Word which is to CEASE doing sin.


Man can live free from sin as in not knowingly or willingly doing things that are sinful.

Those led by the Holy Spirit do not do sinful things, but they may occasionally make mistakes such as forgetting to do something, dropping something on the floor, etc of which are falling short of God's absolute perfection which are automatically cleansed as we see in 1 John 1:7

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from ALL sin.

What 1 John 1:7 does NOT automatically cleanse us from is when we knowingly or willingly doing things that are sinful or if we do things God says in His Word are sinful and we claim we don't think it's sinful.

So it is quite possible to live sin free before the Lord and experience the Lord treating you as though you are sin free if we are being led by the Holy Spirit based on what God has said in His Word which IS Truth.

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me 1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

New Man - Put on Christ

What makes us children of God is IF we answer the Father's call to abide in Christ having turned away from our old life of sin and walk with Him in newness of life

Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Ephesians 4:22-24
put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 13:14
put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him:

2 Corinthians 6:17
come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

This is what baptism is supposed to be about... making a covenant with the Lord, a public declaration of faith, a commitment to put off the old man and put on the new man and to walk in newness of life

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

We are called to cooperate with the Lord, to be co-laborers with Him. He made us in His Image, so we have free will... the Lord desires for us to willingly choose to turn away from our old life of sin and come abide In Christ and not turn away, ever!

1 Corinthians 3:9
We are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

It's God's work, His power, His ability... but WE have to choose to accept His offer to be His children and turn from darkness to walk with Him in the Light.

 

[vassal]

Let's see what scripture says about your assumption of implausibility:

Acts 8:1 — And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Hmm. That poses a problem to your assumptions, huh? Then we have this:

Acts 11:19 — Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

This isn't a matter of my saying that I told you so, but rather the scriptures saying it. Would you agree?

MM

how easily you forget jesus gave the 11 remaining disciples the great commission that was to preach ALL he did and said during his ministry to the ends of the world! you forgot that certainly! Yes you did!

Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

and;

Mrk 16:14 Later, as they were eating, Jesus appeared to the Eleven and rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
Mrk 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mrk 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mrk 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Mrk 16:18 they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”
Mrk 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
Mrk 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked through them, confirming His word by the signs that accompanied it.

you forgot also Peter was appointed by God to preach to the gentiles and he did.

Act 15:7 After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. Yes you forgot also!

Now serious questions: Do you have to keep the Ten Commandments? and Why? you should know this but people who follow Paul exclusively do not.

 

[HigherGospel]

Do you teach sinless perfection? (1 John 1:8-10)

Do you believe 1 John 1:9 is a lie???

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

At that point in time one is literally cleansed from ALL unrighteousness - unless they believe 1 John 1:9 is a lie of the devil.

 

[HigherGospel]

Do you teach sinless perfection? (1 John 1:8-10)

Do you believe 1 John 1:9 is a lie???

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

At that point in time one is literally cleansed from ALL unrighteousness - unless they believe 1 John 1:9 is a lie of the devil.

So, one can be cleansed from all sin, but that does not mean they are perfect in the literal sense.

The other day I forgot to tighten the cap on the orange juice bottle before putting it back in the fridge.

That shows I'm not perfect in the literal sense as Jesus was and is.

However that does not mean I have sin in my life and I'm always going to be a sinner as you people claim about yourselves.

You folks always claim you are sinners and so by your own admission that's apparently what you will continue to be - dirty, rotton, filthy sinners who cannot cease from sin

2 Peter 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

 

[mailmandan]

Do you believe 1 John 1:9 is a lie???

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

At that point in time one is literally cleansed from ALL unrighteousness - unless they believe 1 John 1:9 is a lie of the devil.

I don't believe that 1 John 1:9 is a lie. Do you believe that 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 are a lie?

 

[mailmandan]

Do you believe 1 John 1:9 is a lie???

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

At that point in time one is literally cleansed from ALL unrighteousness - unless they believe 1 John 1:9 is a lie of the devil.

So, one can be cleansed from all sin, but that does not mean they are perfect in the literal sense.

The other day I forgot to tighten the cap on the orange juice bottle before putting it back in the fridge.

That shows I'm not perfect in the literal sense as Jesus was and is.

However that does not mean I have sin in my life and I'm always going to be a sinner as you people claim about yourselves.

You folks always claim you are sinners and so by your own admission that's apparently what you will continue to be - dirty, rotton, filthy sinners who cannot cease from sin

2 Peter 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Who are you folks? You sound like someone who has an axe to grind.