Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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OLDBUTNEW said:
@Jordon : I love it!!!! Keep it coming!!!!! I haven't been this entertained since THE BENNY HILL SHOW finished, back in 1988!!
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At first I thought you wrote BENNY HINN. If you had, I was going to say “I would have been entertained that a fraud and charlatan’s show was finished as well”
 
Blue155 said:
Here is one of the many problems with Calvinism. The issue is that if God eternally decreed all events, all actions, choices, wills, desires, thoughts, intentions, motives of mankind, then that would also mean that He eternally decreed the fall, which would mean He eternally decreed Adam to sin. But nobody, not even Calvinists, would say that God was pleased with the fall. And I would agree with them on that. He was not pleased with the fall. But if He eternally decreed it (if He eternally decreed all events), because He eternally decrees, according to Calvinism, every man's actions, thoughts, desires, wills, motives and determinations, you name it, then how would that not be Him not being pleased with His own eternal decree? Not only that, but it would also mean that God, (taking Calvinism consistently) has eternally decreed Himself not to be pleased with His own eternal decrees.

Now, if Calvinists say yes, and God has eternally decreed the fall, then logically, according to Calvinism, taking it consistently, they would have to say that God would then be displeased with His own eternal decree. If they say no, He did not eternally decree the fall, then they are saying that Adam was able to do something that God did not eternally decree Him to do. But yet they would still say that God is still all-sovereign and powerful. So either way they answer it, Calvinism falls.

@cv5 @OLDBUTNEW @sawdust @HeIsHere @Bible_Highlighter
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There is no evil man can do that God can not use for good. This does not mean God chooses what evil men will do. He has seen all the universes that could exist on the basis of His and man's will and decided this is the one He would manifest as reality. In this sense God has ordained all events which is why He is in control. He is never taken by surprise nor does He ever have to play "catch up".
 
sawdust said:
There is no evil man can do that God can not use for good. This does not mean God chooses what evil men will do. He has seen all the universes that could exist on the basis of His and man's will and decided this is the one He would manifest as reality. In this sense God has ordained all events which is why He is in control. He is never taken by surprise nor does He ever have to play "catch up".
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But Calvinists attribute ordained to meaning eternally decreed all choices as if we are living in a movie where our entire lives are scripted, as if God is the Puppetmaster and we are nothing more than His puppets on strings.
 
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Bible_Highlighter said:
The verse says, "any" and "all."

2 Peter 3:9 KJV

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;​
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."​

Even the context is not exclusively about the Elect leading up to verse nine, and immediately after it:

1. Scoffers (unsaved people) are in the context

2 Peter 3:3–4 – “there shall come in the last days scoffers”​
​
2. The world is in the context

2 Peter 3:6 – “the world that then was”​

3. Ungodly men are in the context

2 Peter 3:7 – “perdition of ungodly men”​

4. God calls all to repentance

2 Peter 3:9 – “not willing that any should perish”​

5. The Day of the Lord affects all mankind

2 Peter 3:10 – “the day of the Lord will come”​


2 Peter 3:14 says to believers,

“Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.” ​

This makes no sense within Calvinism. If the beloved were already unconditionally elect, already guaranteed to be blameless and at peace with God, then why command them to be diligent to be found that way. This instruction only makes sense if believers truly have responsibility before God and must choose to walk rightly rather than assuming automatic blamelessness.

Jonah declared that in forty days Nineveh would be overthrown. Yet this destruction never came because the people heeded their king’s counsel. The king of Nineveh urged the nation to cry out unto God and to forsake their evil ways in the hope of averting judgment. The people obeyed, and God turned back from the evil He had said He would bring upon them. Jonah 3:10 says, “And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way, and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them, and he did it not.” This shows that the Ninevites averted judgment through repentance and not because God had elected them to salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV says,

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;​
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."​

So according to 2 Thessalonians 2:10, what is the reason why those who perish are perishing?
Does it say it is because God did not Elect them?
Or is it because they received not the love of the truth, that they MIGHT be saved?
Please understand that there is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism.
Yet, that is what the Bible says.

How do you explain this?

....
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How do you explain such a short, abbreviated interpretation of v. 8 & 9? :rolleyes:

Peter's letter is written to the elect whom he calls "dear friends" and the "you" in v. 9 are the dear friends to whom he was writing?

"Not will that anyone should perish" applies to those "dear friends" who were being bombarded with false teachers (vv. 3-4), which is why they were in danger of falling away. And these were, of course, ungodly men (v.7). Verse 9 does not say that God does not will that anyone on the planet should perish. (Can you spell EISEGESIS!?) If this were the case then God would be longsuffering/patient toward the entire human race whom He wants to come to repentance; yet the passage doesn't say this either! God's patience is directed to his elect who He doesn't want to fall away and perish at the hands of the ungodly false teachers. IOW, this is a gracious WARNING text to the people God loves.

Also, in v. 9 the "anyone" logically refers back to its nearest antecedent, which is "you". And "you" isn't the entire world in the distributive sense.

Also, it's mighty strange that Peter cites the the judgment of the Flood, and doesn't ask the entire world, who supposedly He doesn't want to perish. Why didn't Peter in v. 11 write "what kind of people ought THEY to be"? Instead, he asks his audience this direct question. "What kind of people ought YOU to be"?

Finally, v. 17 affirms my remarks about God's warning -- in terms of the reason for the warning. He doesn't want his "dear friends" to be carried away and enticed by the error of lawless men (false teachers) and fall away. And again, this explains Peter's remarks about God's patience toward his audience which isn't the entire world.
 
Blue155 said:
But Calvinists attribute ordained to meaning eternally decreed all choices as if we are living in a movie where our entire lives are scripted, as if God is the Puppetmaster and we are nothing more than His puppets on strings.
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This isn't the contention. It's what you believe they are saying. Read Acts 2:23. Now ask yourself a question: who does this verse reveal is responsible for Jesus being crucified?
 
Jordon said:
it would be nice he could accept this m
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I don’t think @Magenta cares if I accept her view or understanding of it. Be that as it may, I do believe what the verse says, we simply have a matter of disagreement on understanding it. And for that, I’m labeled as a Pelagien heretic, while she’s labeled as a Calvinist. Ask her if you think I’m lost. More than likely she will say yes. So, the problem is both camps typically view others on this as lost, as we both cannot be right on this.
 
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Jordon said:
err you should be taken his word seariuksy m it's no joke.

We can be witty with him in joy and stuff, but jumping on the band wagon to shoot the messengers isn't wise friend
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@Jordon : You're funny!

I do take HIS Word seriously!

And I never meant to shoot any messengers!
 
Rufus said:
How do you explain such a short, abbreviated interpretation of v. 8 & 9? :rolleyes:

Peter's letter is written to the elect whom he calls "dear friends" and the "you" in v. 9 are the dear friends to whom he was writing?

"Not will that anyone should perish" applies to those "dear friends" who were being bombarded with false teachers (vv. 3-4), which is why they were in danger of falling away. And these were, of course, ungodly men (v.7). Verse 9 does not say that God does not will that anyone on the planet should perish. (Can you spell EISEGESIS!?) If this were the case then God would be longsuffering/patient toward the entire human race whom He wants to come to repentance; yet the passage doesn't say this either! God's patience is directed to his elect who He doesn't want to fall away and perish at the hands of the ungodly false teachers. IOW, this is a gracious WARNING text to the people God loves.

Also, in v. 9 the "anyone" logically refers back to its nearest antecedent, which is "you". And "you" isn't the entire world in the distributive sense.

Also, it's mighty strange that Peter cites the the judgment of the Flood, and doesn't ask the entire world, who supposedly He doesn't want to perish. Why didn't Peter in v. 11 write "what kind of people ought THEY to be"? Instead, he asks his audience this direct question. "What kind of people ought YOU to be"?

Finally, v. 17 affirms my remarks about God's warning -- in terms of the reason for the warning. He doesn't want his "dear friends" to be carried away and enticed by the error of lawless men (false teachers) and fall away. And again, this explains Peter's remarks about God's patience toward his audience which isn't the entire world.
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lol. I could easily show where your main themes are wrong, but will it do any good? Probably not. Your explanations are unfounded, and when understood within the context, they don’t make a lick of sense. A 90 year old woman who is crippled that wants to climb Mount Everest makes more sense than your posts lol
 
Blue155 said:


But Calvinists attribute ordained to meaning eternally decreed all choices as if we are living in a movie where our entire lives are scripted, as if God is the Puppetmaster and we are nothing more than His puppets on strings.
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Close by a country mile...but no cigar! Try Shakespeare instead:

All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts...

This is God's world stage, and He has indeed written every actor's script, which every actor willingly plays! Great examples are Judas, Balaam, Pharaoh, Cyrus, etc. God is the playwright and producer of HIS redemptive story (operative term here is "HIS").
 
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