Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View

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The distinction you’re making between “Genitive of Source” and “Genitive of Production” actually supports the core of what I said. Wallace himself notes that the Genitive of Production is similar to a Genitive of Source — both emphasize origin or relationship, not identity.

My point isn’t that Wallace formally labels Romans 1:5 KJV as “Source,” but that his description fits that semantic range: obedience that arises out of faith. That’s the same relationship Paul develops repeatedly — faith producing obedience (Rom 10:16-17 KJV; Rom 6:17 KJV; Gal 5:6 KJV).

Whether you call it “production,” “source,” or “descriptive,” the contextual meaning remains consistent: faith is the root, and obedience is the fruit. The grammar simply reflects the theology Paul lays out across Romans — salvation begins in believing, and genuine faith always results in action (Eph 2:8-10 KJV; Jas 2:18 KJV).

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
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You’re correct that Wallace doesn’t “endorse” a specific label for Romans 1:5 KJV—he simply suggests it perhaps reflects a Genitive of Production, which he also notes is similar to a Genitive of Source. That similarity is precisely the point I’m making: both emphasize origin or relationship, not equivalence.

Whether Wallace formally classifies it as “Production” or “Source,” the grammatical sense in context still describes obedience that arises from faith, not obedience equal to faith. Paul consistently frames it that way:
• Romans 10:16–17 KJV – “They have not all obeyed the gospel… So then faith cometh by hearing.”
• Romans 6:17 KJV – “Ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine.”
• Galatians 5:6 KJV – “Faith which worketh by love.”

Each passage reveals the same structure: faith produces obedience; it’s the cause, not the counterpart. So Wallace’s nuance doesn’t contradict the point—it reinforces it. The phrase εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως reflects obedience that flows out of faith, perfectly consistent with Paul’s theology throughout Romans.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!
 
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The Attributive Genitive view you’re describing (“faithful obedience”) may sound plausible grammatically, but it doesn’t fit Paul’s theological flow in Romans. The genitive πίστεως in εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως (Rom 1:5 KJV; 16:26 KJV) expresses relationship and origin, not equivalence. In Paul’s writings, faith and obedience are distinct but inseparable — obedience flows out of faith.

Consider how Paul consistently develops the same pattern:
  • Romans 10:16–17 KJV — “They have not all obeyed the gospel… so then faith cometh by hearing.”
  • Romans 6:17 KJV — “Ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.”
  • Galatians 5:6 KJV— “Faith which worketh by love.”
None of these treat faith as an adjective describing obedience; rather, obedience is the result of believing. Faith is the root — obedience is the fruit.

So whether one labels it “source,” “production,” or “descriptive,” the meaning remains the same: genuine obedience springs from genuine faith. That’s why Paul could say, “By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations” (Rom 1:5 KJV). His focus isn’t on merging faith and obedience into one act, but on the faith that produces a life of obedience to Christ.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
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If salvation were a “cooperative cause,” grace would no longer be grace. Scripture makes it clear that God alone is the efficient cause of salvation, and faith is the means by which we receive it—not a co-agent in producing it.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) — “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Faith and obedience follow salvation’s cause, not share in it. God is the sole Author (Heb 12:2), and faith is the instrument through which His saving grace operates—“to him that worketh not, but believeth” (Rom 4:5). Any view that makes man a “co-cause” turns grace into merit.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!
 
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That syllogism works only if you keep the sequence clear — faith is obedience to the command to believe, not obedience that earns salvation.

Scripture distinguishes the act of believing (obedience to the gospel call) from the fruits of obedience that follow salvation.
  • Romans 1:5 KJV — “for obedience to the faith.”
  • Romans 10:16–17 KJV — “They have not all obeyed the gospel… faith cometh by hearing.”
So yes, believing is obedience to God’s command — but it’s an obedience that receives grace, not one that produces it.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!
 
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The comparison to Jericho doesn’t hold, because the Hebrews were already God’s covenant people before they obeyed. Their obedience was an expression of faith, not the means of entering the covenant.

The same principle applies to salvation — faith precedes the act. Scripture is consistent:

Ephesians 2:8–9 (KJV) — “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Romans 4:5 (KJV) — “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Acts 10:43–47 (KJV) — “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins… Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”

Baptism testifies to what grace has already accomplished. It’s not the channel that produces regeneration; it’s the witness to it. The Spirit regenerates through faith in Christ’s finished work — not through water, but through the Word believed.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) — “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

Titus 3:5 (KJV) — “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!
 
Justification is by faith alone, but justification is not regeneration; it is death. In other words, we are justified from our sins when we are buried in death with Christ in baptism. This is just the first step in regeneration: putting the old man to death. Regeneration is complete when we rise out of the water into new life through the resurrection of Christ. Or as Paul wrote, we are reconciled through Christ's death and we are saved in his life.
 
LightBearer316 said:
The comparison to Jericho doesn’t hold, because the Hebrews were already God’s covenant people before they obeyed. Their obedience was an expression of faith, not the means of entering the covenant.
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Such disjointed non-sensical reasoning. The subject is the walls of Jericho falling down which you morphed into entering the covenant
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Such disjointed non-sensical reasoning. The subject is the walls of Jericho falling down which you morphed into entering the covenant
Click to expand...
The Jericho example was being used to illustrate faith expressed through obedience, not covenant entry. The Israelites didn’t become God’s people by marching — they marched because they already belonged to Him.
Hebrews 11:30 (KJV) says, “By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.”
The cause was faith; the action was its evidence. Just as salvation today is “by grace… through faith” (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV), and the works that follow simply prove that faith is real (James 2:18 KJV).

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Justification is by faith alone, but justification is not regeneration; it is death. In other words, we are justified from our sins when we are buried in death with Christ in baptism. This is just the first step in regeneration: putting the old man to death. Regeneration is complete when we rise out of the water into new life through the resurrection of Christ. Or as Paul wrote, we are reconciled through Christ's death and we are saved in his life.
Click to expand...

The Bible never separates justification and regeneration into two different saving phases. Both occur the moment a sinner believes.

Titus 3:5 (KJV) — “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

Romans 5:1 (KJV) — “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Baptism pictures that reality — it doesn’t produce it. The “old man” dies and the new life begins the instant we’re united with Christ by faith, before touching the water (Ephesians 2:8–9 KJV).

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!
 
LightBearer316 said:
The point I made about εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως in Romans 1:5 KJV and 16:26 KJV isn’t based merely on Wallace’s categorization, but on the consistent semantic relationship Paul expresses between faith and obedience.
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Thanks for finally directly answering my question.

As we know, Wallace doesn't categorize it in his Grammar, other than saying it is "perhaps" Production. Please don't overstate what is actually stated.

So, what we're left with above is your interpretation of what Paul expresses, not what is supported by Wallace - or "endorsed" by Wallace as you previously said agreed it is not.

LightBearer316 said:
The genitive πίστεως naturally functions as a source or descriptive genitive — that is, obedience that proceeds from or characterizes faith.
Click to expand...

Again, this is your opinion and it is not endorsed by Wallace. yet your statement that started this part of discussion looked to say Wallace does endorse your opinion.

LightBearer316 said:
This is exactly how Paul treats faith elsewhere:
  • Romans 10:16–17 KJV – “They have not all obeyed the gospel... So then faith cometh by hearing.” Faith leads to obedience.
  • Romans 6:17 KJV – “Ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.”
  • Galatians 5:6 KJV – “Faith which worketh by love.”
In each case, obedience is the fruit or expression of faith — not a separate co-equal act. That’s why many grammarians (including Wallace, Robertson, and Blass-Debrunner-Funk) allow the descriptive genitive reading: obedience characterized by faith or obedience arising out of faith.
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  • Again, this is more opinion without any Scriptural support other than your opinion of what Rom1:5 says:
    • Rom10:16-17 is clearly parallelism making believing in the Gospel and obeying the Gospel parallel - faith and obedience are explaining the same response to God - believing the Gospel is obeying the Gospel.
    • Rom6:17 speaks of obedience from the heart to teaching:
      • The source of obedience is the heart
        • obedience resides internally in the heart
        • obedience is then expressed outwardly from the heart
      • Rom10:9-10 speaks of believing in the heart
        • Believing is in the heart
        • Rom10:16-17 believing and obeying are parallel
        • Rom6:17 obedience is in the heart
        • Paul simply and continually parallels faith & obedience in Romans.
          • The following is an excerpt from Garlington's article referenced by Wallace in the Net Bible Notes already provided to you, and apparently derived from Cranfield's article also referenced by Wallace. It is within a discussion of the scholarly support for Apposition in Rom1:5 "obedience [of] faith". "[ ]" is my insertion for clarity. Underlined highlights are mine:
            • "The strength of this [Apposition] position resides in the parallel texts in which faith and obedience are tantamount to each other. The point should be sufficiently
              clear from the following table.
              1:8: “your faith is proclaimed in all the world”
              16:19: “your obedience is known to all”
              10:16a: “but all have not obeyed the gospel”
              10:16b: “for Isaiah says, ‘Who has believed our report’“
              11:23: “if they do not remain in unbelief”
              11:30: “by their disobedience”
              11:31: “so they now have been disobedient”
              1:5: “the obedience of faith among all the nations”
              15:18: “to win obedience from the nations”"
            • Continuing but I'm deleting the Greek due to font conflicts in pasting: "Schlier supplements the list by pointing to 10:21 and 15:31, where unbelieving Israel is described in terms of disobedience (cf. 2 Thess 1:8). Schlier concludes that obedience is that of faith, so that unbelief can be designated as disobedience."
      • Gal5:6 is silent re: obedience, but with all the above, it's pointless IMO to consider Paul as not having obedience in mind whenever he speaks of genuine faith. Also:
        • NKJ Gal5:7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
          • Combined: obeying the truth <-> faith working through love
        • Let alone if we're loving Him <-> we're obeying Him (Ex; Deut; John14, 15; 1John5)
  • I've already put to rest your reference to Wallace which (Grammar) and who (NET Notes) does not endorse what you say it and he does.
  • If you'd like, you can provide links to Robertson and BDF. Until you do, they're of no use and not credible referencing, especially after seeing you misrepresent resources.
I agree with @TrustandObey - you're pushing a theology not supported by the Text.
 
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Exactly — they marched because God told them to, which proves the very point I made: their obedience flowed from faith in God’s word, not as a means to become His people.
Hebrews 11:30 (KJV) — “By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.”
The act followed belief. The power was in God, not in the marching — just as salvation’s power is in Christ, not in the water or the work that follows believing.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!
 
1762958446097.png
The distinction matters because Scripture does.

Romans 4:5 (KJV) — “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Faith obeys the command to believe — it doesn’t earn salvation. That’s why Paul separates “worketh not” from “believeth.” The act of believing is trust in Christ’s finished work, not a work added to it.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!
 
LightBearer316 said:
That syllogism works only if you keep the sequence clear — faith is obedience to the command to believe, not obedience that earns salvation.
Click to expand...

That's not how the logic works. You're inserting sequence.

Yes, "faith is obedience to the command to believe" which is what I've been saying and what the logic says.

You're inserting "earning" into the logic & grammar:
  • Faith/Obedience is the required & structured response to the Gospel
The syllogism:

Premise 1: Faith is Obedience (1John3:23)
Premise 2: Faith is not works (Eph2:8-9)
Conclusion: Therefore, Obedience is not works
 
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Fair point — and I agree Wallace doesn’t explicitly “endorse” a specific genitive label for Romans 1:5 KJV. My point wasn’t that he assigns it dogmatically, but that his explanation of the Genitive of Production (which he says is similar to a Genitive of Source) fits Paul’s usage pattern.

The key issue isn’t the grammatical label, but Paul’s semantic framework — faith producing obedience. That’s consistent throughout Romans (Rom 6:17 KJV; 10:16–17) and Galatians 5:6 KJV.

So while Wallace may leave the category open, Paul’s own usage clarifies the meaning: obedience that arises from faith, not obedience as faith itself.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!
 
1762958596747.png

That’s fair — Wallace doesn’t explicitly “endorse” any one category for Romans 1:5 KJV. But he does describe the Genitive of Production as “similar to a Genitive of Source,” which captures the same underlying relationship of origin or dependence.

My statement simply reflects that nuance — not an appeal to authority, but a recognition that Paul’s syntax fits that semantic range. The broader Pauline pattern (Romans 6:17KJV; 10:16–17; Galatians 5:6 KJV) consistently shows obedience proceeding from faith, not equated with it.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!
 
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