Loss of salvation???

[LightBearer316]

... some people decide they love the world more than God
... some people stop listening to the spirit
... whoever denies the lord will be denied by him

I'll need to gently push back on what He Said:

“…some people decide they love the world more than God​

…some people stop listening to the Spirit​

…whoever denies the Lord will be denied by Him”​

At face value, that sounds plausible — but contextually, it confuses two categories Scripture keeps distinct:

1. Professing believers (those who outwardly identify as Christians but aren’t truly born again), and
2. Possessing believers (those truly indwelt by the Spirit).

What Scripture Actually Teaches:

• True believers are kept by God’s power, not their own willpower.
  
  “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” — 1 Peter 1:5 KJV​
• Those who ‘love the world’ reveal they never truly belonged to God.
  
  “If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” — 1 John 2:15 KJV
  John immediately follows that by saying, “They went out from us, but they were not of us…” (v.19).​
• A true believer can grieve or quench the Spirit (Eph. 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:19) — but not “stop listening” in the sense of total abandonment, because the Spirit Himself ensures their perseverance (Phil. 1:6).
• The statement “whoever denies the Lord will be denied by Him” (cf. Matt. 10:33) applies to those who reject Christ, not to those who momentarily falter in weakness like Peter — who denied Him but was restored (John 21:15–17 KJV).

Basically:
A regenerate believer may stumble, waver, or experience seasons of weakness — but cannot permanently fall away.
Anyone who permanently abandons Christ shows they never possessed saving faith to begin with.

“They went out from us, but they were not of us…” — 1 John 2:19 KJV​

“He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” — Philippians 1:6 KJV​

So in short: his statement mixes truth with error. The first two lines misrepresent regeneration by implying the indwelt believer can simply “choose” to walk away from the Spirit. The third line (“whoever denies the Lord…”) rips Jesus’ warning from its salvation context and applies it wrongly to the truly saved.

I’ve noticed that when I’ve tried to correct him in the past, he doesn’t handle constructive criticism well. But Scripture calls us to a higher standard — we’re to “contend earnestly for the faith” (Jude 1:3 KJV) while also being “swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath” (James 1:19 KJV).

A true disciple receives correction with humility, not defensiveness. Proverbs 9:8 KJV reminds us, “Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.” It’s not about winning arguments but walking in truth and grace.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

 

[LightBearer316]

Many believe that just believing in Jesus is enough for eternal life they base this on a few verses from John but we must understand the full context of what John throughout his writings meant.
Jesus said in John 6:40, “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
These words were spoken after He had fed the five thousand and the people followed Him, not because they truly understood who He was, but because they wanted more food and miracles. Jesus began to teach them that they should not labor for the food that perishes but for the food that endures to everlasting life. He told them that the true bread from heaven is not the manna their fathers ate, but Himself, the One sent by the Father to give life to the world. In that teaching, this verse becomes the heart of His message, showing what it really means to come to Him and to believe in Him.

When Jesus said that everyone who “sees the Son” will have life, He obviously did not mean seeing with physical eyes alone.
Many people in His time saw Him, but only a few truly recognized who He was. To see the Son means to recognize and understand Him in spirit, to realize that He is the Son of God, the Word made flesh, the perfect image of the Father’s love and will. Jesus told Philip, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). This means that to see Jesus is to see the character, mercy, and holiness of God. It is a seeing that happens through faith, when the heart opens to the truth and light that He brings. Those who only look at Him with curiosity or seek signs do not really see the Son. But those whose hearts are opened by faith see Him for who He truly is, and that is where life begins.

Then Jesus said that those who “believe in Him” will have eternal life. This word “believe” is often misunderstood. In our modern language, to believe usually means to agree with something in our minds, to accept it as true. But in the language of Jesus, believing means much more. The word used in the Gospel of John, “pisteuō,” means to trust completely, to rely upon, and to give oneself to another.

To believe in Jesus means not only to accept that He exists or that He is the Son of God, but to trust His words, follow His teachings, and live as He commands. True belief joins faith with obedience. Jesus explained this clearly when He said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). He also said, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). A person cannot truly believe in Jesus and at the same time ignore what He taught.

Real faith moves the heart to action, just as someone who believes a bridge will hold them will walk across it. Belief is not silent or still; it produces the fruit of obedience and love. This kind of belief brings a new kind of life. Jesus said, “He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life” (John 5:24). Notice that He says “has,” not “will have.” Eternal life is not only something future but begins now, in this world, when a person receives the truth of Christ and lives by it. It is the life of God entering the soul, a life of peace, purity, and joy through the Spirit. This is what Jesus meant when He said that those who believe will have eternal life. They begin to live the life of heaven while still on earth, walking in the light of the truth, filled with the love that comes from God.

But Jesus also said, “I will raise him up at the last day.” It shows that eternal life has both a present and a future part. Now it is the spiritual life of the soul; later it will be the resurrection of the body. Jesus repeated this promise four times in this same chapter (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54), showing how certain it is that those who remain faithful will rise from death to life when He returns. This resurrection is the final reward of those who have truly believed — not those who merely confessed His name, but those who lived according to His word. To believe is to stay faithful until the end, trusting and following Him no matter the cost.
When Jesus said, “This is the will of My Father,” He revealed that it is God’s desire for all people to see the Son and to truly believe in Him. God does not want anyone to perish but that all should come to life through His Son. But that life is not found through words only; it is found in a heart that trusts and obeys. To believe in Christ is to give Him your heart, your will, and your life. It is to accept His teachings, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments. This is the faith that Jesus honors, the faith that transforms a person into a child of God.

When Jesus spoke these words, He was calling the people away from an empty kind of belief — one that seeks blessings and miracles but does not seek the truth. He was calling them to a faith that abides. Later He said, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31–32). This is what it means to believe in Him: to remain in His word, to live by His truth, to let His Spirit guide every step. Such faith does not end when life becomes difficult. It endures, it obeys, and it trusts until the last day when He fulfills His promise, saying, “I will raise him up.”

The true meaning of “believe” in John 6:40 is not a mere thought or confession, but a living trust joined with obedience and love. It is seeing Jesus with the eyes of faith, understanding that He is the Son of God, trusting and giving yourself completely to Him. It is walking in His words, following His path, and holding fast to His truth until the end. This is the kind of belief that brings everlasting life, both now and in the resurrection to come.

You raise some thoughtful points, Vassal, but the key issue here is what Scripture itself defines as saving faith.

Jesus indeed calls people to “believe,” but belief in Scripture is not defined by human effort or perseverance — it’s defined by trust in His finished work, not by what we add to it.

“This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.” — John 6:29 KJV​

In John 6, Jesus’ point wasn’t that faith and obedience together earn eternal life, but that faith in Him is itself the means by which we receive life — because it unites us to Him, the Bread of Life. That’s why He said, “He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47 KJV). It’s present tense — not conditional upon continued performance, but upon genuine belief.

True saving faith naturally results in obedience (James 2 KJV), but obedience is the fruit, not the root, of salvation. To reverse that order undermines grace itself.

“If it is by grace, then is it no more of works.” — Romans 11:6 KJV​

Yes, a believer who truly knows Christ will “keep His commandments” (John 14:15), but even that love and obedience flow from the indwelling Spirit given at salvation — not from human striving to prove faith real. We are not raised up “at the last day” because we’ve been faithful enough, but because Christ is faithful to His promise (John 6:40; John 10:28–29).

To “believe” in biblical Greek (pisteuō) certainly means to trust and rely on, but the object of that trust is Christ’s sufficiency alone. Adding endurance or obedience as prerequisites to eternal life turns faith into a work.

Eternal life is not a reward for the faithful — it’s a gift to the believing.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.” — Ephesians 2:8–9 KJV. etc...saved through faith not baptism ​

Grace and peace.

 

[Musicmaster]

No you still do not get it, salvation is not work based. Read James he tells it as it is but you still do not understand....

and yes the text is mine!

James preached to Israel a works-based justification for righteousness, Paul was the polar opposite:

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:16, 18
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. ...
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

No good works are required for our justification, but since you mentioned James:

James 2:14, 17, 20-21
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ... [Absolutely faith alone saves!]
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ...
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

As an Israeli who was a Messianic Jew for many years, I was raised with the works-based mentality from James and the other eleven, spending most of our time studying Torah, with no time at all studying Paul's epistles since they contradicted the twelve that we preferred above the teachings of Paul. The Messianic Jewish groups have a fixation upon works-based salvation and its retention through works of effort for trying to BE righteous and through effort abstain from various sins.

I left that tradition because of my realization that there is no righteousness at all within us that can be an addition to the sufficiency of the shed Blood of Christ. Do you get that? Yes, under the Kingdom Gospel they had to endure unto the end, which was a self-effort endeavor preached by Christ in Matthew 24 in relation to the coming tribulation, but that was delayed. The Kingdom Gospel was a dispensation whereby their salvation was unlike ours today because theirs was FUTURE:

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be [future tense] saved.

By the sealing of Holy Spirit, which was not at all ever preached by the twelve but only by Paul through the dispensation of grace, we right now have the earnest of Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our salvation right now rather than something future. Paul never preached the requirement for endurance as was the case for those under the Kingdom Gospel.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In whom ye also trusted [not worked], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The requirement for endurance and works doesn't at all speak to an receiving an "earnest" of anything, and James said nothing about an earnest given apart from one's own efforts as a perfection of their faith under the Kingdom Gospel, but demanded works as a completion, a perfection, of their faith. Some out there have written entire books trying to explain all that away to try and make it seem as though James and Peter were preaching the same gospel and dispensation as was Paul, which is patently false. Allegorizing the clear language that betrays the differences in order to try and harmonize it into being the same gospel through Paul, those who preach that are teaching falsehood. THIS is why Paul said:

Galatians 1:6, 9
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: [Not false, but ANOTHER gospel.]
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Introducing works into Paul's gospel is a corruption, but because the Kingdom Gospel was itself a corruption, but it simply cannot be homogenized with the Gospel of Grace. Doing good works is indeed the natural outflow of a genuine faith, but making works an element that allegedly supplements unmerited favor for all who are saved by grace, that's nothing but corruption, which is the reason for the accursedness of those who preached that to those who were and are saved by GRACE.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The nay-sayers love relegating that "other" gospel as being false, but that's nothing but a failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

So, yes, James preached works-based, for how could one be saved under the Kingdom Gospel without works as the perfecting of their faith? Paul emphatically stated that it is NOT of works, lest any man should boast.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I'll need to gently push back on what He Said:

“…some people decide they love the world more than God​

…some people stop listening to the Spirit​

…whoever denies the Lord will be denied by Him”​

At face value, that sounds plausible — but contextually, it confuses two categories Scripture keeps distinct:

1. Professing believers (those who outwardly identify as Christians but aren’t truly born again), and
2. Possessing believers (those truly indwelt by the Spirit).

What Scripture Actually Teaches:

• True believers are kept by God’s power, not their own willpower.
  
  “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” — 1 Peter 1:5 KJV​
• Those who ‘love the world’ reveal they never truly belonged to God.
  
  “If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” — 1 John 2:15 KJV
  John immediately follows that by saying, “They went out from us, but they were not of us…” (v.19).​
• A true believer can grieve or quench the Spirit (Eph. 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:19) — but not “stop listening” in the sense of total abandonment, because the Spirit Himself ensures their perseverance (Phil. 1:6).
• The statement “whoever denies the Lord will be denied by Him” (cf. Matt. 10:33) applies to those who reject Christ, not to those who momentarily falter in weakness like Peter — who denied Him but was restored (John 21:15–17 KJV).

Basically:
A regenerate believer may stumble, waver, or experience seasons of weakness — but cannot permanently fall away.
Anyone who permanently abandons Christ shows they never possessed saving faith to begin with.

“They went out from us, but they were not of us…” — 1 John 2:19 KJV​

“He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” — Philippians 1:6 KJV​

So in short: his statement mixes truth with error. The first two lines misrepresent regeneration by implying the indwelt believer can simply “choose” to walk away from the Spirit. The third line (“whoever denies the Lord…”) rips Jesus’ warning from its salvation context and applies it wrongly to the truly saved.

I’ve noticed that when I’ve tried to correct him in the past, he doesn’t handle constructive criticism well. But Scripture calls us to a higher standard — we’re to “contend earnestly for the faith” (Jude 1:3 KJV) while also being “swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath” (James 1:19 KJV).

A true disciple receives correction with humility, not defensiveness. Proverbs 9:8 KJV reminds us, “Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.” It’s not about winning arguments but walking in truth and grace.

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

What about this other post? Would you mind addressing it?

https://christianchat.com/threads/so-many-false-pastors-today.210223/post-5606342

MM

 

[vassal]

James preached to Israel a works-based justification for righteousness, Paul was the polar opposite:

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:16, 18
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. ...
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

No good works are required for our justification, but since you mentioned James:

James 2:14, 17, 20-21
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ... [Absolutely faith alone saves!]
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ...
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

As an Israeli who was a Messianic Jew for many years, I was raised with the works-based mentality from James and the other eleven, spending most of our time studying Torah, with no time at all studying Paul's epistles since they contradicted the twelve that we preferred above the teachings of Paul. The Messianic Jewish groups have a fixation upon works-based salvation and its retention through works of effort for trying to BE righteous and through effort abstain from various sins.

I left that tradition because of my realization that there is no righteousness at all within us that can be an addition to the sufficiency of the shed Blood of Christ. Do you get that? Yes, under the Kingdom Gospel they had to endure unto the end, which was a self-effort endeavor preached by Christ in Matthew 24 in relation to the coming tribulation, but that was delayed. The Kingdom Gospel was a dispensation whereby their salvation was unlike ours today because theirs was FUTURE:

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be [future tense] saved.

By the sealing of Holy Spirit, which was not at all ever preached by the twelve but only by Paul through the dispensation of grace, we right now have the earnest of Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our salvation right now rather than something future. Paul never preached the requirement for endurance as was the case for those under the Kingdom Gospel.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In whom ye also trusted [not worked], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The requirement for endurance and works doesn't at all speak to an receiving an "earnest" of anything, and James said nothing about an earnest given apart from one's own efforts as a perfection of their faith under the Kingdom Gospel, but demanded works as a completion, a perfection, of their faith. Some out there have written entire books trying to explain all that away to try and make it seem as though James and Peter were preaching the same gospel and dispensation as was Paul, which is patently false. Allegorizing the clear language that betrays the differences in order to try and harmonize it into being the same gospel through Paul, those who preach that are teaching falsehood. THIS is why Paul said:

Galatians 1:6, 9
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: [Not false, but ANOTHER gospel.]
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Introducing works into Paul's gospel is a corruption, but because the Kingdom Gospel was itself a corruption, but it simply cannot be homogenized with the Gospel of Grace. Doing good works is indeed the natural outflow of a genuine faith, but making works an element that allegedly supplements unmerited favor for all who are saved by grace, that's nothing but corruption, which is the reason for the accursedness of those who preached that to those who were and are saved by GRACE.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The nay-sayers love relegating that "other" gospel as being false, but that's nothing but a failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

So, yes, James preached works-based, for how could one be saved under the Kingdom Gospel without works as the perfecting of their faith? Paul emphatically stated that it is NOT of works, lest any man should boast.

MM

MM, I will speak to you plainly, because there is only one truth, and that truth comes from the words of Jesus Himself. Your message is built almost fully on Paul, and on the idea that there are two different gospels. But Jesus never taught that. His original apostles never taught that. And the Old Testament never prepared us for that. There has only ever been one way, one gospel, and one Shepherd calling every person into the same life.
First, Jesus never said there would be a “Kingdom Gospel for Israel” and a “Grace Gospel for another group.” He said His own words will judge every person at the last day. “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him. The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day” (John 12:48, NKJV). Jesus also said He is the only way for all people, without dividing anyone into different dispensations. “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6, NKJV).
Second, you said faith alone saves. But MM, Jesus never said that. Jesus said the exact opposite. He said that only those who hear His words and do them will enter the Kingdom. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father” (Matthew 7:21, NKJV). He also asked, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46, NKJV). For Jesus, real faith is always tied to obeying Him. A person can claim faith, but if it has no obedience, Jesus calls that empty.
This is exactly what James teaches. He is not preaching a different gospel. He is repeating his Master’s voice. “Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17, NKJV). James is saying in his own words what Jesus already said: a tree is known by its fruit. When he uses Abraham, he is not creating a works system. He is showing what Jesus Himself said about Abraham: “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham” (John 8:39, NKJV). James follows Jesus, not a separate dispensation.
You also said Matthew 24:13 belonged only to Israel. But MM, Jesus repeats the same call to endurance to His disciples in many places, not just in Matthew 24. “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 10:22, NKJV). This is not a different gospel. It is the same call Jesus gives to all who follow Him in every age: stay faithful and do not turn away from Him.
You said the Holy Spirit seals people in a way that removes the need for endurance. But Jesus taught that the Spirit comes to those who keep His word. “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word… and We will come to him and make Our home with him” (John 14:23, NKJV). Jesus never taught, “Say a prayer and you are sealed forever.” He taught, “Follow Me, walk in My words, and My Spirit will live in you.”
MM, the idea of “two gospels” is not from Jesus. It is not from the twelve apostles. It is not from the Old Testament. It is a teaching built by reading Paul and twisting his words in a way that breaks apart the words of the Lord. But Jesus said the apostles were to teach all nations everything He commanded, not a different message to different groups. “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations… teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19–20, NKJV).
Anyone who claims James preached one gospel and Jesus preached another is placing human ideas above the voice of the Lord. There is only one truth, and that truth begins with Jesus’ own words. He said, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth” (John 8:31–32, NKJV).

MM, there is one gospel, and it calls every person everywhere to believe, obey, endure, and follow Jesus until the end. That is the truth the Lord spoke, and His words do not change.

 

[Me_Clay]

There are 2 salvation programs from God.

1. Gospel for the Jews

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

After the Jews rejected the Messiah in Acts 7.

**************************************************

2. Gospel program begun with the Gentiles.

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Glory and honour to our LORD

 

[Musicmaster]

MM, I will speak to you plainly, because there is only one truth, and that truth comes from the words of Jesus Himself. Your message is built almost fully on Paul, and on the idea that there are two different gospels. But Jesus never taught that. His original apostles never taught that. And the Old Testament never prepared us for that. There has only ever been one way, one gospel, and one Shepherd calling every person into the same life.

I agree with you to some extent. Had the Old Testament, Jesus and/or His apostles taught the Gospel of Grace, which was the means through which salvation is come unto the Gentiles and therefore a mystery (hidden wisdom), then it would not have been a mystery at all and the princes of this world would not have crucified the Lord of Glory, just as it is declared in the scriptures.

So, you have indeed hit upon what is so very true except to say that it's all based entirely on Paul. All that led up to Paul's gospel are the things upon which Paul's gospel was built, revealed ONLY to Paul after his conversion:

Galatians 1:11-12
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

What was the source of Paul's knowledge of the Kingdom Gospel? Men. That gospel was the basis for his persecution of the early church.

The Gospel of Grace, which was NOT entirely similar to the Kingdom Gospel he received from men, came only through Christ. Do you get that?

So, your post only proves not only what I've been saying all along but also what scripture says that remains rejected by some who demand it's all just one and the same gospel. Peter preached the necessity for water baptism in Acts 2 for the remission of sins...a message Paul nowhere preached nor even implied water baptism as a means for remitting sin, and yet they continue to parrot the mantra of it all being one and the same.

Christ was the foundational truth for the Kingdome Gospel, just as He is for the Gospel of Grace. The other elements, however, that are dissimilar, show to us the division in truth...and yes, there are divisions in truth. If that were not the case, then Paul would not have commanded that we rightly divide the word of truth.

Airline jets have a common fuel for their engines, wings for lift and other control surfaces for flight, but that doesn't mean that all jets are exactly alike. Blurring the lines of distinction in order to claim something that defies reason, that speaks of an agenda of some sort that also have variances from person to person. So, why are you trying so hard to ignore the differences? What do you gain from that?

The main thing I'm basing upon Paul is the gospel of our salvation. I never said there were no richness in what the others said, but not all truths for Israel are true for the body of Christ today. You do not go out into your back yard and offer up animal sacrifices when you sin, so you too are a believer in divisions in truth.

MM

 

[Ouch]

There are 2 salvation programs from God.

1. Gospel for the Jews

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

After the Jews rejected the Messiah in Acts 7.

**************************************************

2. Gospel program begun with the Gentiles.

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Glory and honour to our LORD

So how do Jews get reborn?

How do the Gentiles?

 

[Me_Clay]

So how do Jews get reborn?

How do the Gentiles?

Hi Ouch

We have Jews who are reborned in the current "church age", the church (bride of Christ). The Jew who followed the church will be raptured together with us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I don't understand your second question "how dobthe gentiles?"

Kind regards
Clay

 

[Genez]

So how do Jews get reborn?

How do the Gentiles?

Just like this Jew did!

I had no idea what I was getting myself into.
I took a tract from someone...
And walked away.
While reading it, I decided to say the prayer.
Had no idea anything was supposed to happen.

Then weeks later?
BAM!
Had no idea why things were beginning to happen on a very supernatural level.

I believed In Jesus Christ, and He took it from there!

........

 

[Gpianolf]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

I realize you wrote this well over a year ago, but it is something that I believe plagues many Christian minds today.

I recently read a very helpful book that didn't help me put these thoughts to rest, per se, but it did help direct me to think about these things in a more biblical way. The book is called "The Vanishing Conscience" by John MacArthur. Now I already know there are some staunch MacArthur haters on this platform. I can speak from prayerful experience that the Lord used this book in my life to heal some very deep and longstanding wounds.

Back to your question, though. Usually, when people talk about these things and phrase them as you have, the passages that typically bring them to those questions are in Hebrews. Let me tell you... For a few years, that (Hebrews) was a hard book for me to swallow because of this very issue. If you have past sins that stand out compared to others (at least in your mind), it is easy to see yourself as the one who came to know Christ and then fell away. But what's important to understand is that that isn't what those passages are talking about. When examining the language used, the author of Hebrews isn't addressing people who are already in the fold or who are saved. Instead, it's talking about those who have seen what God can do, who have possibly been around other believers, who have "tasted" of these things, but who have never partaken in the meal. For me, although that didn't settle my concerns, I am now close to putting it to rest and resolving those thoughts. What we need to understand is that being under the weight of his discipline/correction sometimes feels worse than the shame/guilt we felt before our conversion. And that's okay. If you are truly His, He WILL correct you and discipline you. Like a good father.

What's even more important is that we respond to that correction. Here's where it gets tricky because several well-meaning people speak with a particular kind of boastful arrogance on the matter as if they have all the answers. But it is here where it becomes strictly situationally based. What I mean is, what is true about one man may not apply to the next. I'm not suggesting "what's true for you isn't true for me" for that's a heresy. I'm referring to something more akin to a parent correcting their son versus their daughter. There are different needs and issues to address with each. That is also true for believers. I say all that to give some context since this is public... However, it is essential that we respond to His correction, because if we don't, we run the risk of searing our consciences and, in the final analysis, proving that we were never His to begin with.

I would strongly suggest that every believer read this book. It is edifying, encouraging, humbling, and God-honoring.

Be well, Brethren.

 

[Me_Clay]

I realize you wrote this well over a year ago, but it is something that I believe plagues many Christian minds today.

I recently read a very helpful book that didn't help me put these thoughts to rest, per se, but it did help direct me to think about these things in a more biblical way. The book is called "The Vanishing Conscience" by John MacArthur. Now I already know there are some staunch MacArthur haters on this platform. I can speak from prayerful experience that the Lord used this book in my life to heal some very deep and longstanding wounds.

Back to your question, though. Usually, when people talk about these things and phrase them as you have, the passages that typically bring them to those questions are in Hebrews. Let me tell you... For a few years, that (Hebrews) was a hard book for me to swallow because of this very issue. If you have past sins that stand out compared to others (at least in your mind), it is easy to see yourself as the one who came to know Christ and then fell away. But what's important to understand is that that isn't what those passages are talking about. When examining the language used, the author of Hebrews isn't addressing people who are already in the fold or who are saved. Instead, it's talking about those who have seen what God can do, who have possibly been around other believers, who have "tasted" of these things, but who have never partaken in the meal. For me, although that didn't settle my concerns, I am now close to putting it to rest and resolving those thoughts. What we need to understand is that being under the weight of his discipline/correction sometimes feels worse than the shame/guilt we felt before our conversion. And that's okay. If you are truly His, He WILL correct you and discipline you. Like a good father.

What's even more important is that we respond to that correction. Here's where it gets tricky because several well-meaning people speak with a particular kind of boastful arrogance on the matter as if they have all the answers. But it is here where it becomes strictly situationally based. What I mean is, what is true about one man may not apply to the next. I'm not suggesting "what's true for you isn't true for me" for that's a heresy. I'm referring to something more akin to a parent correcting their son versus their daughter. There are different needs and issues to address with each. That is also true for believers. I say all that to give some context since this is public... However, it is essential that we respond to His correction, because if we don't, we run the risk of searing our consciences and, in the final analysis, proving that we were never His to begin with.

I would strongly suggest that every believer read this book. It is edifying, encouraging, humbling, and God-honoring.

Be well, Brethren.

Didn't John MacArthur descended? Is he who converted many catholics into Calvinist.

 

[Gpianolf]

Didn't John MacArthur descended? Is he who converted many catholics into Calvinist.

Did you mean did he pass away? He recently did. And even he would tell you it was never about Calvinism. Watch this video of him talking about the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism.

MacArthur’s INCREDIBLE Take on Arminianism Vs Calvinism

To the rest of your point, in my humble opinion, I believe there are Christians in Catholicism, but I also do not believe you can be a Christian and remain in good standing in the Roman Catholic faith. As you mature in your relationship with Christ and in your knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures, your convictions will inevitably change. I mean no offense when I say that, please understand that.

 

[Me_Clay]

Did you mean did he pass away? He recently did. And even he would tell you it was never about Calvinism. Watch this video of him talking about the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism.

MacArthur’s INCREDIBLE Take on Arminianism Vs Calvinism

To the rest of your point, in my humble opinion, I believe there are Christians in Catholicism, but I also do not believe you can be a Christian and remain in good standing in the Roman Catholic faith. As you mature in your relationship with Christ and in your knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures, your convictions will inevitably change. I mean no offense when I say that, please understand that.

You're not wrong, provided they come out of their Catholicism and Reformed theologies, etc.

 

[Me_Clay]

"Lordship Salvation refers to the belief which says the sinner who wants to be saved must not only trust Christ as his substitute for sin, but must also surrender every area of his life to the complete control of Christ. "

John MacArthur, Faith Works, p. 25

 

[Genez]

Did you mean did he pass away? He recently did. And even he would tell you it was never about Calvinism. Watch this video of him talking about the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism.

MacArthur’s INCREDIBLE Take on Arminianism Vs Calvinism

To the rest of your point, in my humble opinion, I believe there are Christians in Catholicism, but I also do not believe you can be a Christian and remain in good standing in the Roman Catholic faith. As you mature in your relationship with Christ and in your knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures, your convictions will inevitably change. I mean no offense when I say that, please understand that.

I like how he can admit that he does not know why it is so... with humor.


Big problem:
Predestination has been boxed into having one meaning that may very well mean something else.

 

[Me_Clay]

We live in a crazy world dont expect anything sound from this world. If you love this world then you're enemy of God.

Jesus warned us there will be many antichrist, false prophet, false teachers, false disciples, false church, false gospel, false spirits, etc.

 

[Genez]

We live in a crazy world dont expect anything sound from this world. If you love this world then you're enemy of God.

Jesus warned us there will be many antichrist, false prophet, false teachers, false disciples, false church, false gospel, false spirits, etc.

He also said in the Word that there should be only a FEW good teachers. James 3:1

While, 2 Timothy 4:3 warns that there will be MANY bad teachers.

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them
a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.


It is what it is.​

 

[Jordon]

We live in a crazy world dont expect anything sound from this world. If you love this world then you're enemy of God.

Jesus warned us there will be many antichrist, false prophet, false teachers, false disciples, false church, false gospel, false spirits, etc.

do you have all the right doctrines, I mean we have have already had a discussion where you suggested God puts a sword through his own spirit

 

[Jordon]

You're not wrong, provided they come out of their Catholicism and Reformed theologies, etc.

how about you is your faith reformed in any way