Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View

[LightBearer316]

Faith justifies; obedience saves. Justification is not salvation; it is merely the first step

Exactly — that phrase “faith justifies; obedience saves” sounds pious, but it’s actually a subtle way of smuggling works into grace.

That sounds neat, but it’s not what Scripture teaches.
If “obedience saves,” then salvation would no longer be by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). Paul makes it plain:

“To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” — Romans 4:5​

Obedience is the fruit of salvation, not the root of it.
Faith justifies, and the justified obey — not to be saved, but because they already are saved.

Anything that makes salvation depend on our obedience instead of Christ’s finished work turns the gospel into law again.

People like @ChristRoseFromTheDead often build their whole framework around baptism as the instrument of salvation. So no matter how many verses you show about faith preceding baptism, they’ll circle back to make baptism the saving act rather than the sign of salvation.

@ChrsitRoseFromTheDead are you Roman Catholic?

Grace and peace.

 

[LightBearer316]

Are you Roman Catholic?

 

[NightTwister]

That’s a classic deflection — it tries to make the issue personal instead of biblical.

That's not deflection. You made the accusation that some are "more interested in defending their system than in actually hearing what Scripture says." My response was a reasonable observation. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't hearing what scripture says. They just "hear" it different than you do.

 

[LightBearer316]

That's not deflection. You made the accusation that some are "more interested in defending their system than in actually hearing what Scripture says." My response was a reasonable observation. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't hearing what scripture says. They just "hear" it different than you do.

That’s fair — disagreement itself isn’t the problem. But when I said some are “more interested in defending their system,” I wasn’t talking about sincere differences in interpretation. I was referring to the pattern where people stop engaging the text itself and simply repeat conclusions their system requires.

We can “hear it differently,” but Scripture still has an intended meaning.
Our job isn’t to make the Bible fit our perspective; it’s to align our perspective with the Bible.

That’s why context, cross-references, and consistency matter — otherwise everyone’s “hearing” becomes the standard, not God’s Word.

Grace and peace.

 

[NightTwister]

We can “hear it differently,” but Scripture still has an intended meaning.

You're saying the same thing in a different way. Bottom line, you're right, those who disagree with you are wrong. I mean, that's fine, but don't think you're the only one who is backing their view from Scripture. Most of my life I agreed with where you are now on baptism. After much study, I concluded that I was wrong and scripture said something else. There was no "system" about it, in fact the church I was attending at the time was baptist.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Precious friends, yes, confusion reigns when we forsake "context, cross-references,
and consistency", And Also God's study command [ Rule # 2 BSR ], eh?

BaptismS Scriptural Summary!:​

LORD JESUS, please open our hearts to ALL of Thy Truth. Amen:

Prophecy/Covenants/Law { for earthly Israel }:
►►► The Twelve Were Sent to {water} baptize! ◄◄◄

The two "Main" (of 12) baptismS =

A) water, For remission of sins!:
(Matthew 3:5-6; Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; John 1:31; Luke 7:29-30; Acts 10:37)
(Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Ezekiel 36:25 AV)
+
B) "WITH" The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah 44:3; Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8, 16:17-18; Luke 24:49;
Acts 2:17-18, 38; Acts 8:15-17; Acts 11:16 AV)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

...In God's Other Program of Mystery And GRACE! For The

[ Heavenly ] Body Of Christ!!:​

►►► Paul Was Not Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?:

◄◄◄ Today: Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION
Spiritually "Identifying" members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27;
Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13 AV)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Concluding Question: God's ONE Baptism, Under Grace Today? = ONE?

Or, as some teach, we need to "add" water baptism [ from God's Other
Prophetic Program ] thus making Two baptisms Under Mystery/Grace =
bad Math ( which God Doesn't Have ), Correct, Precious friend(s)?

Longer/Expounded answer is here: ONE [ Spiritual ] Baptism

Amen.

Also see UnScriptural or UNdispensational?



Neither is there a need for "language scholarship" to understand "Plain English" Scripture, eh?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Paul’s flow is clear — justification brings reconciliation, and reconciliation ensures salvation. They’re distinct in meaning, but inseparable in experience.

No it doesn't. Obedience and endurance ensure salvation

In your endurance you possess your souls. Luke 21:19​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

We’re saved because we’re justified, and we’re justified through faith in Christ alone.

Again this is specious wording. Yes, we are saved because we are justified, but justification alone doesn't save a person. It is merely the first step.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Exactly — that phrase “faith justifies; obedience saves” sounds pious, but it’s actually a subtle way of smuggling works into grace.

That sounds neat, but it’s not what Scripture teaches.
If “obedience saves,” then salvation would no longer be by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). Paul makes it plain:

“To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” — Romans 4:5​

Obedience is the fruit of salvation, not the root of it.
Faith justifies, and the justified obey — not to be saved, but because they already are saved.

Anything that makes salvation depend on our obedience instead of Christ’s finished work turns the gospel into law again.

People like @ChristRoseFromTheDead often build their whole framework around baptism as the instrument of salvation. So no matter how many verses you show about faith preceding baptism, they’ll circle back to make baptism the saving act rather than the sign of salvation.

@ChrsitRoseFromTheDead are you Roman Catholic?

Grace and peace.

You're conflating justification with salvation, which is what calvinists have to do to make their fallacious theology work; and using semantics to try to portray obedience as not really being obedience. It's so ridiculous.

Justification is an essential and integral part of salvation, for without it there would be no salvation. But they are distinct, and scripture makes that distinction. Justification is a one-time event and salvation is a life-long process. Those who say obedience to God's voice is not necessary for salvation are simply following in the footsteps of Christian gnostics who believed they were saved regardless of whatever behavior they practiced

 

[TheLearner]

due to shoulder pain, I only read thruoghhh

 

[LightBearer316]

due to shoulder pain, I only read thruoghhh

I’m sorry to hear about your shoulder pain. May the Lord bring you relief and strength. Hopefully, what we write here nourishes your soul and brings a bit of comfort in the meantime.


Grace and peace.

 

[LightBearer316]

You're saying the same thing in a different way. Bottom line, you're right, those who disagree with you are wrong. I mean, that's fine, but don't think you're the only one who is backing their view from Scripture. Most of my life I agreed with where you are now on baptism. After much study, I concluded that I was wrong and scripture said something else. There was no "system" about it, in fact the church I was attending at the time was baptist.

I appreciate you sharing that — honestly. It’s clear you’ve wrestled with the text, and I respect anyone who takes Scripture seriously enough to re-examine long-held views.

When I mention “systems,” I’m not accusing individuals of bad motives; I’m pointing out how easily any of us (myself included) can let conclusions start guiding our interpretation instead of the other way around. That’s why I try to keep coming back to the pattern we actually see in the New Testament — belief first, then baptism as response.

The order isn’t about denominational loyalty, it’s about consistency with passages like Acts 16:31-33 and Romans 10:9-10, where faith precedes the act. Baptism is beautiful and commanded — but it’s a testimony of salvation, not the cause of it.

Grace and peace, sincerely.

 

[LightBearer316]

Precious friends, yes, confusion reigns when we forsake "context, cross-references,
and consistency", And Also God's study command [ Rule # 2 BSR ], eh?

BaptismS Scriptural Summary!:​

LORD JESUS, please open our hearts to ALL of Thy Truth. Amen:

Prophecy/Covenants/Law { for earthly Israel }:
►►► The Twelve Were Sent to {water} baptize! ◄◄◄

The two "Main" (of 12) baptismS =

A) water, For remission of sins!:
(Matthew 3:5-6; Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; John 1:31; Luke 7:29-30; Acts 10:37)
(Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Ezekiel 36:25 AV)
+
B) "WITH" The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah 44:3; Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8, 16:17-18; Luke 24:49;
Acts 2:17-18, 38; Acts 8:15-17; Acts 11:16 AV)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

...In God's Other Program of Mystery And GRACE! For The

[ Heavenly ] Body Of Christ!!:​

►►► Paul Was Not Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?:

◄◄◄ Today: Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION
Spiritually "Identifying" members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27;
Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13 AV)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Concluding Question: God's ONE Baptism, Under Grace Today? = ONE?

Or, as some teach, we need to "add" water baptism [ from God's Other
Prophetic Program ] thus making Two baptisms Under Mystery/Grace =
bad Math ( which God Doesn't Have ), Correct, Precious friend(s)?

Longer/Expounded answer is here: ONE [ Spiritual ] Baptism

Amen.

Also see UnScriptural or UNdispensational?

View attachment 281149

Neither is there a need for "language scholarship" to understand "Plain English" Scripture, eh?

Here is my summary of his @GRACE_ambassador View:

He’s promoting a hyper-dispensational or Acts 9/Acts 28 dispensational view — sometimes called the “Grace Movement.”
In short, he believes:

1. There are two different programs in Scripture — one for Israel (earthly, involving water baptism), and another for the Church, the Body of Christ (heavenly, involving only spiritual baptism).
2. Therefore, according to him, water baptism was commanded for Israel during the gospel period and early Acts, but it no longer applies today.
3. “One baptism” in Ephesians 4:5 (which Paul mentions) — he claims — refers only to the spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.

How He’s Framing It

He divides Scripture like this:


He’s quoting 2 Timothy 2:15 (“rightly dividing the Word of truth”) to justify splitting the Bible into two unrelated dispensations — one for Israel and one for the Church — so he can say water baptism no longer applies in the present age.

What’s Problematic

1. Paul never abolishes water baptism. He says, “I thank God that I baptized none of you” (1 Cor. 1:14), but he still baptized some, and his point was to avoid division — not to declare baptism obsolete.
2. Ephesians 4:5 (“one baptism”) doesn’t mean “no water baptism.” It means unity of meaning — Spirit baptism and water baptism are connected expressions of one faith, not two competing rituals.
3. “Two programs” theology splits the Church and Israel in a way the New Testament never does (see Eph. 2:14–16 — “He has made both one”).

He’s basically saying:

“Water baptism belonged to Israel under the old dispensation; today, believers are only baptized spiritually by the Holy Spirit. So Christians shouldn’t practice water baptism anymore.”​

It’s a classic ultra-dispensational interpretation that rejects any water baptism for the Church today. Hyper- or ultra-dispensationalism is seriously unbiblical.

I appreciate your zeal for “rightly dividing,” brother, but Paul’s teaching doesn’t abolish water baptism — it clarifies its meaning.

When Paul said, “Christ sent me not to baptize” (1 Cor 1:17), he wasn’t declaring baptism obsolete; he was correcting the party spirit in Corinth. Even so, he still baptized some (1 Cor 1:14–16).

Ephesians 4:5 (“one baptism”) isn’t a cancellation of water baptism — it’s a call to unity. The Spirit and the water bear witness together (1 John 5:8). The outward act testifies to the inward reality.

There aren’t two competing baptisms or two different gospels — Paul and Peter both preached salvation by grace through faith in Christ (Acts 15:9–11). The same Lord who saves us by the Spirit also commanded baptism as our public confession of that faith.


Grace and peace.

 

[LightBearer316]

No it doesn't. Obedience and endurance ensure salvation

In your endurance you possess your souls. Luke 21:19​

Your reply—“Obedience and endurance ensure salvation. In your endurance you possess your souls” (Luke 21:19)—is taking a verse from a tribulation context and applying it to justification, which mixes categories that Scripture keeps distinct.

That verse (Luke 21:19) is spoken by Jesus in the context of tribulation perseverance, not justification. He’s exhorting His disciples to remain steadfast during persecution so they might preserve their lives (“souls”) through endurance—not to teach that endurance earns salvation.

Paul’s flow in Romans 5 makes the distinction clear:

“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ… being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”​

— Romans 5:1, 10 (KJV)​

Justification brings reconciliation; reconciliation guarantees ultimate salvation.
Obedience and endurance are fruits of that salvation, not conditions for earning it.

Ephesians 2:8–10 affirms the same order:

• Grace through faith — the means of salvation (v. 8–9)
• Good works — the result and evidence of salvation (v. 10)

So endurance is the evidence that one truly possesses saving faith (cf. 1 John 2:19), not an additional requirement that replaces grace.

Luke 21:19 is part of Jesus’ Olivet Discourse (Luke 21:5–36), where He warns His disciples about:
Coming persecution,
Jerusalem’s destruction, and
The trials preceding His return.

So the verse doesn’t describe how to gain eternal life but how to endure faithfully through coming hardship.

The Greek literally reads:

“By your endurance, you will gain your lives.”​

(Ὑπομονῇ ὑμῶν κτήσασθε τὰς ψυχὰς ὑμῶν)​

• “Patience” (ὑπομονή) means steadfast endurance under pressure — remaining faithful when tested.
• “Possess” (κτάομαι) means to gain, preserve, or win something.
• “Souls” (ψυχή) can mean life, person, or inner being.

Thus, Jesus is saying:

“By patient endurance, you will preserve your life — you’ll stay spiritually safe and secure through trial.”​

It’s a call to faithful perseverance, not works-based salvation.

This verse aligns with the broader biblical theme:

True believers endure because they are genuinely saved (Matthew 24:13, John 10:27–28).
Endurance is evidence of saving faith — not the means of earning it.

In other words:

Perseverance does not cause salvation; it confirms it.​

Jesus was telling His followers:

“When the world falls apart and persecution comes, don’t panic or give up. Keep trusting Me. In that endurance, you will preserve your true life — your soul.”​

Grace and Peace

 

[LightBearer316]

You still have not answered the question... Are you Roman Catholic?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Your reply—“Obedience and endurance ensure salvation. In your endurance you possess your souls” (Luke 21:19)—is taking a verse from a tribulation context and applying it to justification, which mixes categories that Scripture keeps distinct.

No, I did not apply that verse to justification. You're either ignorantly or purposely misrepresenting what I said

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

View attachment 281152

You still have not answered the question... Are you Roman Catholic?

I didn't see your question. No, I'm not

 

[LightBearer316]

I didn't see your question. No, I'm not

“Will you acknowledge that faith precedes baptism — that baptism is not the saving act itself, but rather an outward sign and testimony of the salvation already received by faith?”

 

[LightBearer316]

Brother, if someone refuses to admit that faith precedes baptism, and that baptism is an outward sign of an inward reality, then—whether they realize it or not—they’ve stepped outside the historic, biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone.

You may say you’re not Catholic, and that’s fine. But denying that faith comes before baptism means you’re still holding to a sacramental view of salvation—one where grace is conferred through a physical act. That’s not New Testament Christianity; that’s works-based salvation under a different label.

Let’s be honest about what Scripture actually says:

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God—Not of works, lest any man should boast.”​

— Ephesians 2:8–9 (KJV)​

Baptism is commanded, yes—but as an act of obedience, not as the means of receiving saving grace. The thief on the cross, justified without baptism, proves that salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone.

Rejecting that order—faith first, baptism after—isn’t Protestant or apostolic. It’s a return to sacramentalism, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Oneness Pentecostal in form.

In short:

Faith saves. Baptism testifies.​

One is the root; the other is the fruit.​

Grace and Peace

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

“Will you acknowledge that faith precedes baptism — that baptism is not the saving act itself, but rather an outward sign and testimony of the salvation already received by faith?”

Of course faith precedes baptism.

Faith alone justifies, but justification alone doesn't save.

Water baptism is obedience to God's commandment; it's not a sign. It's a rite commanded by God to receive forgiveness of sins. Spiritual circumcision is the sign.

Again you are conflating justification with salvation. Justification is merely the first step in the salvation process.