Gospel Confusion...
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Because Romans 8:38-39 say nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
That would be nothing outside of ourselves. We can separate ourselves from God's love.
It doesn't say anything outside ourselves. It says nothing can separate us.
So an entire church can be derailed?
How do you interpret the following verses?
Hebrews 6:7-8
For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those
for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is
worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
In a sense. If the candlestick is removed, the light...the pastor is taken away...the church will become apostate. So yes, the church will derail.
The verses you shared exemplify what came just before it. The true church, as well as true Christians bear fruit. The false professors and unenlightened churches remain barren.
John was inspired to write using images that were descriptive items having only to do with Israel. So, yes, they could indeed fall away from Jesus under the Kingdom gospel. Replacement theology has Gentile Evangelicals thinking that those letters were written to them rather than to the congregations of believing Jews who were still zealous for the Law of Moses. The number of believing Gentiles FAR outnumbered the believing Jewish communities in the outlying provinces and nations. I realize this is a hard thing to try and grapple with given the constant drone of false teaching pastors out there who force Gentiles into every page of the Bible, but it is what it is.
Remember, John was not the apostle to the Gentiles. Notice how Paul never took advantage of the opportunity to include any of the twelve into his identity as THE appointed apostle to the Gentiles. He never said WE, but rather the personal "I":
Romans 11:13 KJV] 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Although he trained up other apostles (those sent), contrary to Gentile claims and misunderstanding about Israel and the plans the Lord had (and still has) for us, the Church was first populated ONLY by Jews who were destined for entry into the tribulation and then the millennial kingdom. The decline of Israel, however, through our continued rejection of Christ up to the execution of Stephen, as a nation and a people chosen by God, salvation by grace through faith alone THEN came unto the Gentiles directly through the revelation of the mystery of Paul's Gospel. Satan had ALL the Gentiles in his back pocket (so to speak) until then:
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
So, what was possible to happen to Israel before the sealing of Holy Spirit unto salvation, yes, they could indeed fall away, but the Gospel of Grace, the salvation though which was and is unmerited on our part, provided the means by which our continuing to sin was not a matter of falling away and therefore losing our salvation. No process nor state is identified anywhere in scripture for one to experience the removal of the seal of Holy Spirit today. No threshold is defined anywhere in scripture over which one can step in order to experience the removal of that seal upon us, even though many out there seem to imagine the presence of such a line that not one soul has yet identified to me or anyone else I have ever seen thus far.
The line for salvation is indeed distinct and well defined, but that imaginary line for its loss is yet to be identified anywhere within Paul's epistles. Some have imagined denial of Christ and His resulting denial is itself allegedly that point, but one will search in vain that salvation and its loss is at all the topical point of that context.
Some foolish individuals out there will claim that's an argument from silence, which is a false claim given that I'm not creating any doctrine from silence, but rather showing the silence as the prime weapon against their doctrinal creations and injections of meaning and wording into that text resulting in an assumption that simply isn't supported by that text.
They can't imagine denials from Christ as that being anything else but a blockage to salvation, but, then, they also can't show to us where there is even one allusion to the idea that our salvation is contingent upon Christ giving to us HIs yea or nay for passage into Heaven. That silly nonsense is the fodder of simpletons who know next to nothing about the scriptures. This line of crap thinking is where they get their stupid jokes about Peter allegedly standing at the pearly gates and asking each one why they should gain admittance to Heaven. There's no test of questions for entry, but the powers of suggestion have many thinking along that line regardless of its total absence of any parallel within scripture. They fail to realize that nobody is going to show up at ANY pearly gates who are not saved already.
Were it possible to lose one's salvation today, all have lost it given that we all sin daily if the retention of our salvation were based upon our efforts to abstain from sin, and therefore our performance.
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Salvation-loss gang members hate this verse, therefore attempt to twist it into saying other than what it clearly states.
So, yes. Israel did indeed fall away as a nation, which included groupings of Israelites in the outlying provinces. The few precious souls who retained their faith in Christ under the Kingdom Gospel, they were indeed saved so long as they persevered unto the very end, as Jesus spoke in Matthew 24. It's very strange to the modern, indoctrinated mindset within the ranks of Gentile believers, to hear that those seven churches were Messianic Jews, especially given that the tribulation is not intended for believing Jews nor believing Gentiles, but now only for unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles alike.
MM
Let's allow God's own word to interpret that:
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Does that help?
MM
Hello MusicMaster.
Hebrews 6:7-8
For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those
for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is
worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Let's allow God's own word to interpret that:
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;
and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon,
he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved;
yet so as by fire.
Does that help?
Yes, it tells me that you misunderstood those two passages.
Hebrews six is talking about falling away from Jesus. Here is the verse before Hebrews 6:7-8.
Hebrews 5:5-6
And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away,
it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God
and put Him to open shame.
Whereas one Corinthians three is talking about Christian works and rewards.
Two completely different subjects.
Hebrews and 1 Corinthians are written to two different audiences in separate dispensations. Hebrews is written for the Jews in the last days, the tribulation, aka, Jacob's trouble.
How does that change why the Hebrews were falling into apostasy?
Yet, Paul was discussing the rewards to the Corinthians for their works.
So you accept the Lord's commandment in 1 Corinthians 14?
1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to
you are the Lord’s commandment.
I would have thought that you would follow church tradition rather than the scripture.
Paul is talking about the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit.
The seven churches in Turkey are listed in the book of Revelation.
All seven churches were Christian churches.
Revelation 2:3-5
And you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary.
But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where
you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and
will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.
I would say that the church above in Ephesus was in serious trouble.
The Ephesian church had fallen and was in danger of being removed from Christ's presence.
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Nearly all churches believe that the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit.
Came to an end after the age of the apostles ended.
Here is one list for you to check to see if you are a traditional church member.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11
But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given
the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another
the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits,
to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and
the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
If you agree that the work of the Holy Spirit never changes then you obey all the commandments
of the Lord. If you omit a commandment such as 1 Corinthians 14:37 then, you are a traditional
church member. You don't follow Sola Scripture.