Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

No, God does/did not give every man a measure of faith.

God made natural man inherently able to seek Him in Book of Acts.

Prove that God didn't give natural man Faith since God gave natural man the ability to seek Him?

 

[rogerg]

God made natural man inherently able to seek Him in Book of Acts.

Prove that God didn't give natural man Faith since God gave natural man the ability to seek Him?

[Rom 3:10-11 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Rufus]

Here's the discussion, Rufus:

rogerg said:​

Grace through Christ's faith, not man's faith. Christ was faithful to the Father which faith brought forth grace and salvation​

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:​

What does that even mean? How can a person have another person's faith? Faith is being persuaded by and putting confidence in something someone says, in this particular case, the gospel.​

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Rufus said:​

In the same way a person can have another person's righteousness.​

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:​

You don't have another person's righteousness. You have been credited with Christ's righteousness and you learn to walk in his righteousness and be conformed to his image as you obey his voice.​

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Rufus said:​

You're playing a bad game of semantics. Righteousness is a divine gift given to God's elect. Through the obedience of one man, the many were made righteous. So, yes, I have my Lord's righteousness imputed to my soul. By His merits, I am as righteous as He is! And since you don't believe this about yourself, it's very likely you're a stranger to God's grace.​

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reneweddaybyday said:​

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.​

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Abraham believed ... God imputed righteousness to Abraham.​

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Please provide the verse which states faith was imputed to Abraham. Thank you.​

We know from Gen 15:6 and Rom 4:3 that God imputed righteousness to Abraham when Abraham believed:

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

You have yet to provide Scriptural support for your answer to the question posited by ChristRoseFromTheDead:

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:​

What does that even mean? How can a person have another person's faith? Faith is being persuaded by and putting confidence in something someone says, in this particular case, the gospel.​

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Rufus said:​

In the same way a person can have another person's righteousness.​

Since we know righteousness is imputed and since, according to you, "a person [can] have another person's faith" ... "in the same way a person can have another person's righteousness" ... please provide Scripture which indicates that faith is imputed. thank you.
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To be IN Christ is to be ONE with him. It's to be united to Him. It's to be identified with Him. And when any saint is IN Him, he's no longer in Adam. Christ's imputed righteousness obliterates Adam's imputed sin to his progeny. Since Christ is the Federal Head of God's people, the elect receive ALL the benefits of His righteous life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension.

Also, as I explained yesterday, Christ's bore the sins of God's elect in his body, which means all sins of all God's chosen people were imputed to Jesus at the Cross.

As far Abraham goes, he was not saved on a different basis than the NC saints. Abraham, along with all the OT saints, were in Christ since Jesus in eternity was appointed to be a covenant to his [chosen] people in both dispensations (Isa 49:8). Note carefully, please, that the Messiah was NOT appointed to be a covenant for the peopleS (plural) or the nations. He clearly was appointed to be a covenant to Israel (all Abraham's spiritual descendants ).

 

[Rufus]

God made natural man inherently able to seek Him in Book of Acts.

Prove that God didn't give natural man Faith since God gave natural man the ability to seek Him?

Another lie. No one seeks after God innately (3:11) because no "natural man" naturally fears God. The Fear of the Lord is a grace that is unilaterally promised by God and given to His covenant people. Did A&E seek God after they sinned!? How they reacted to God after their sin is paradigmatic of all their progeny which is how Paul could have written what he did in Rom 3.

 

[rogerg]

To be IN Christ is to be ONE with him. It's to be united to Him. It's to be identified with Him. And when any saint is IN Him, he's no longer in Adam. Christ's imputed righteousness obliterates Adam's imputed sin to his progeny. Since Christ is the Federal Head of God's people, the elect receive ALL the benefits of His righteous life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension.

Also, as I explained yesterday, Christ's bore the sins of God's elect in his body, which means all sins of all God's chosen people were imputed to Jesus at the Cross.

As far Abraham goes, he was not saved on a different basis than the NC saints. Abraham, along with all the OT saints, were in Christ since Jesus in eternity was appointed to be a covenant to his [chosen] people in both dispensations (Isa 49:8). Note carefully, please, that the Messiah was NOT appointed to be a covenant for the peopleS (plural) or the nations. He clearly was appointed to be a covenant to Israel (all Abraham's spiritual descendants ).

And not only that, Rufus, but we are also informed in the following, that:

[Rom 5:1-2 KJV]
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

It seems to me that by the "through our Lord Jesus Christ", we are told who the justification of the "justified by faith" is from
It also seems confirmed to me by the "By whom" of v2 that it refers back to Jesus Christ of v1.
IOW, the faith is Christ's faith and by that faith we are brought into grace, the grace of Eph 2:8, whereby is salvation received as a gift.

 

[cv5]

hmmmm ... I asked the same "AI, did the Christian doctrine of total inability originate from Paul?" ... and the full unrevised result ...

The Christian doctrine of "total inability," which asserts that humanity is inherently corrupted by sin and incapable of choosing God or salvation without divine grace, was not originated by the Apostle Paul but was primarily formulated by St. Augustine in the 5th century.

While Augustine's doctrine drew on Paul's biblical epistles—particularly Romans—to develop his case, the fully defined theological concept emerged centuries later during a heated debate known as the Pelagian controversy.

Paul's contributions to the idea

The foundational biblical texts used to support the doctrine of total inability are primarily found in the letters of Paul. The Apostle described a universal state of sinfulness that affects all people and discussed the inability of the "flesh" to please God.

Key Pauline passages include:

• Romans 3:10–12: Paul references Old Testament passages to conclude that "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God".
• Romans 7:18: Paul laments, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out".
• Ephesians 2:1: Paul states that humans are "dead in the trespasses and sins" before they are spiritually made alive by God.

Augustine's formulation of the doctrine

The theological framework for total inability was fully articulated by Augustine of Hippo as a direct response to the teachings of Pelagius, a British monk who taught that humans were capable of choosing and doing good by their own free will.

In the 5th century, Augustine argued against Pelagius for a few key reasons:

• Response to Pelagianism: Augustine felt that Pelagius's views minimized the necessity of God's grace and denied the severity of humanity's fallen nature.
• Nature of sin: He argued that original sin corrupted human nature so profoundly that the will was no longer free to choose good on its own. While the natural man can still make choices, he is morally unable to choose what is truly good and pleasing to God.
• Necessity of grace: For Augustine, God's grace is not simply an aid but is absolutely essential to transform the human will and make it capable of choosing righteousness.

Distinction between Paul and Augustine

While Paul's writings provided the inspiration for the doctrine, the fully developed concept of total inability is a product of Augustine's theological synthesis. The debate over Pelagianism forced Augustine to define and clarify the consequences of original sin in a way that Paul did not explicitly articulate.

The difference can be seen this way:

• Paul's role: Paul described the symptoms of humanity's spiritual condition—that all people are under sin and unable to attain righteousness on their own.
• Augustine's role: Augustine provided a systematic diagnosis for that condition—that humanity inherited a corrupted, morally incapable nature from Adam.

Romans 3:10–12: Paul references Old Testament passages to conclude that "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God".

Someone needs to inform the disciples of Augustine that David is speaking about..... himself in these passages.
Not those "doomed hopelessly depraved totally unable people over there".

Question to the disciples of Augustine:
Did David seek after God? Was David saved? Was David a man after God's heart? What circumstances drove David to codify these passages?

These determinists cannot answer the foregoing, because they do not understand these passages. And vice versa. That much is certain.....

 

[Magenta]

And they don't even interpret that correctly, most notably:

[Rom 1:19, 31 KJV]
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. ...
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

In v19, God qualifies what they can know as "that which may be known", in other words, there is more that exists they can't comprehend by their "knowledge" and,
in v31, that while they have certain knowledge, they are without understanding i.e. spiritual discernment. So, by that, we see they are brought back to the limitations of the natural man

Yes... and He confounds the intelligence of men... men in the flesh cannot know Him through their intellect alone because it is a matter of the heart and this is explicitly taught in Scripture ... this is the central theme that FWers deny... and then they claim they don't teach that flesh can please God when that is exactly what they are saying, since the man without the Holy Spirit of God indwelling them is a man of the flesh, not a spiritual man, and the natural man is the one they say can believe and exhibit faith which is pleasing to God... the guy who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness with an incurably wicked, God-hating heart, who is opposed to the spiritual things of God which he can nether receive/accept or understand because they are comprehended only by/through the Spirit... that is the guy they say chooses to believe. Their (FWers) position is contrary to so much the Bible has to say in no uncertain terms but they prefer their philosophically based self-exalting idolatry!

The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. The world does not recognize Him. No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. The one who loves God is known by God. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it. Whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

 

[Magenta]

Another lie. No one seeks after God innately (3:11) because no "natural man" naturally fears God.
The Fear of the Lord is a grace that is unilaterally promised by God and given to His covenant people.
Did A&E seek God after they sinned!? How they reacted to God after their sin is paradigmatic of all
their progeny which is how Paul could have written what he did in Rom 3.

So interesting to see how this dovetails with the conceit of FWers' self-exalting ideology.

Psalm 36 verses 1-4 ~ An oracle is in my heart regarding the transgression of the wicked man: There is no fear of God before his eyes. For his eyes are too full of conceit to detect or hate his own sin. The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and well-doing. Even on his bed he plots wickedness; he sets himself on a path that is not good; he fails to reject evil.

 

[cv5]

[Rom 3:10-11 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5589503

No, you've got that all wrong. @Rufus too.

 

[Magenta]

[Rom 3:10-11 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Psalm 14 verses 1-3; Job 15 verse 16 ~ The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if any understand, if any seek God. All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Man is vile and corrupt.

 

[rogerg]

Yes... and He confounds the intelligence of men... men in the flesh cannot know Him through their intellect alone because it is a matter of the heart and this is explicitly taught in Scripture ... this is the central theme that FWers deny... and then they claim they don't teach that flesh can please God when that is exactly what they are saying, since the man without the Holy Spirit of God indwelling them is a man of the flesh, not a spiritual man, and the natural man is the one they say can believe and exhibit faith which is pleasing to God... the guy who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness with an incurably wicked, God-hating heart, who is opposed to the spiritual things of God which he can nether receive/accept or understand because they are comprehended only by/through the Spirit... that is the guy they say chooses to believe. Their (FWers) position is contrary to so much the Bible has to say in no uncertain terms but they prefer their philosophically based self-exalting idolatry!

The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. The world does not recognize Him. No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. The one who loves God is known by God. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it. Whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

Yes, and to me it comes back to that they believe themselves savior and deny Christ.

 

[lrs68]

[Rom 3:10-11 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Acts says same thing that God made man to be able to seek Him but man doesn't. So you are saying what I just said. You don't even read what I am posting.

 

[lrs68]

Another lie. No one seeks after God innately (3:11) because no "natural man" naturally fears God. The Fear of the Lord is a grace that is unilaterally promised by God and given to His covenant people. Did A&E seek God after they sinned!? How they reacted to God after their sin is paradigmatic of all their progeny which is how Paul could have written what he did in Rom 3.

We've proven the Book of Acts is true long before you joined the bandwagon literally months ago.

 

[rogerg]

Acts says same thing that God made man to be able to seek Him but man doesn't. So you are saying what I just said. You don't even read what I am posting.

No, I'm not - they are unable to: they have NO understanding; they CANNOT seek after God

 

[Magenta]

No, I'm not - they are unable to: they have NO understanding; they CANNOT seek after God

Nor can they submit to or obey God but this gets denied also. FWers shamelessly rewrite the verses they don't like.

It is uh... interesting too (for lack of a better word) how frequently and easily they blaspheme God.

The wicked man boasts in the cravings of his heart; he blesses the greedy and reviles the LORD. In his pride the wicked man does not seek Him; in all his schemes there is no God. Psalm 10 v 3-4 Mocker is the name of the proud and arrogant man - of him who acts with excessive pride. Proverbs 21 v 24 The proud look of man will be humbled, and the loftiness of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. For the Day of the LORD of Hosts will come against all the proud and lofty, against all that is exalted - it will be humbled. Isaiah 2 v 11-12 No flesh may boast before God. 1 Cor 1 v 29

 

[Rufus]

I said the content was not all about the saved but he explained everything so we know that ALL MEN have a measure of Faith and since it takes Faith to KNOW GOD chapter 1 tells us of those who know God but reject God and ultimately become reprobate.

You are the one interjecting what you think I said because you assume everything.

I understand why you do because if you knew God and reject God and become reprobate then you can lose your salvation.

But it is about the saved because Paul wrote his epistle TO the SAVED! The personal pronouns in Rom 12:3-6 are directed to the SAVED! Paul equates the measure of faith given to the saints to a GIFT. In order for you to pervert the contexts (intermediate and immediate) in which this passage is found, you would also have to believe and tell us that the other gifts Paul mentions in vv. 6-9 were also given to the ungodly world!

 

[Rufus]

Some cannot seem to grasp that knowing there is a God is vastly different than believing the gospel.

And I think FWers likely believe that "knowing there is a God" by His creation of the universe is equivalent to knowing God, which is the crux of eternal life. They try to make Rom 1 say much more than it is by virtually equating Paul's words to saving knowledge of spiritual truth which can only come from Special Revelation and the ministerial work of the Holy Spirit upon God's elect.

 

[Rufus]

Actually no it's not because in Acts Paul said God inherently made man to seek Him, in Romans Paul said God gave [every] man a measure of Faith. So Romans 1 is not a shocker because of what Paul wrote in several other places.

Hmmm....where in Acts does it say that. Shirley, you're not alluding to Act 17:27, are you?

 

[Magenta]

And I think FWers likely believe that "knowing there is a God" by His creation of the universe is equivalent to knowing God, which is the crux of eternal life. They try to make Rom 1 say much more than it is by virtually equating Paul's words to saving knowledge of spiritual truth which can only come from Special Revelation and the ministerial work of the Holy Spirit upon God's elect.

Well, Jesus told us that those who know God are only those to whom He chooses to reveal God.

Of course this gets mocked and scoffed at by FWers as well as many other verses and truths Scripture makes plain.

There is even at least one here and very likely more who try to shame those who affirm that God keeps His promises.

It is shameful that they do such things, but they don't care about that any more than they care
about directly contradicting and outright denying a plethora of others Scriptural truths.

Uh, that is, when they are not busy butchering them and/or rewriting them to suit their self-exalting presups.

Matthew 11 verse 27 ~ All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

 

[Rufus]

No, God does/did not give every man a measure of faith.

And if God did then he must consider all human beings w/o exception to be humble, since he gives his saving grace (not to be confused with common grace) only to the humble.