Is it Total Depravity?

[Genez]

.

If man were in a state of total depravity?
Total = 100% depraved?
Then God would have NOTHING to save!

What we have been told to believe by some has been a case of a well-intentioned misnomer.

For when it comes to the unrighteousness of man?
It is not actually total depravity.
But, the total incapacitation of man.

Man has been totally incapacitated....
He is unable to function as God intended.

We need to rethink that over for a while.

grace and peace ............

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Total depravity/inability is a carryover from Manichean gnosticism that Augustine introduced into the church after converting from that sect to Christianity. Calvin and Luther based their theologies on his writings, instead of going back to those of the early church fathers, and here we are.

 

[Genez]

Total depravity/inability is a carryover from Manichean gnosticism that Augustine introduced into the church after converting from that sect to Christianity. Calvin and Luther based their theologies on his writings, instead of going back to those of the early church fathers, and here we are.

That's helpful to know.

Yet.. You still failed to address my point. -

The total incapacitation of man.
Not, total depravity.

Man is incapable of achieving the approval of God by his own works.

In the meanwhile.

We need to get down to the actual defining of things to know what they are.

Just the same, the concept of total depravity has some valid details.
But, not properly applied when drawing to its conclusion.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

That's helpful to know.

Yet.. You still failed to address my point. -

The total incapacitation of man.
Not, total depravity.

Man is incapable of achieving the approval of God by his own works.

In the meanwhile.

We need to get down to the actual defining of things to know what they are.

Just the same, the concept of total depravity has some valid details.
But, not properly applied when drawing to its conclusion.

Total depravity and total inabilty are closely related, and effectually are the same thing, so I use one for the other. Total inability is total incapacitation

 

[Magenta]

Total depravity/inability is a carryover from Manichean gnosticism that Augustine introduced into the church after converting from that sect to Christianity. Calvin and Luther based their theologies on his writings, instead of going back to those of the early church fathers, and here we are.

Paul taught inability. The total part relates to the whole man since no part of man was left unaffected by sin.

It is apparent that what people are objecting to is their own made-up definitions instead of what terms actually mean.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the
Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will,
emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being
including who we are and what we do. Everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are
like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). We sin because we are sinners by nature.

Total depravity summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man.
Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant,
some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption”
or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how
accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen
man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly
understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that:

1—no one is without sin,

2—no one seeks after God,

3—there is no one who is good,

4—their speech is corrupted by sin,

5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and

6—above all, they have no fear of God.

So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach
that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions
so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12). source

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Mr. AI, did the Christian doctrine of total inability originate from Augustine's association with Manichaean gnosticism?

"Yes, the Christian doctrine of total inability is believed to have been influenced by Augustine's association with Manichaean Gnosticism, which taught that humans are inherently unable to choose good without divine intervention. Augustine adapted these ideas into his own theological framework, particularly regarding original sin and predestination."

Mr AI, does the Christian belief of total inability derive from the Manichaean gnostic belief that the material world was incapable of doing anything good?

"The Christian belief in total inability does share similarities with Manichaean Gnostic views, particularly in the belief that the material world is flawed. However, early Christian teachings emphasized free will, contrasting with the Gnostic perspective that denied human capacity for good due to inherent corruption. "

 

[Magenta]

AI, did the Christian doctrine of total inability originate from Paul?

Yes, the Christian doctrine of total inability is strongly supported by Paul's writings, especially in Romans ch 3,
Romans ch 8, and Ephesians ch 2, where he describes humanity's universal sinfulness and spiritual death, making
them incapable of seeking or pleasing God apart from His grace. The doctrine draws directly from these Pauline
passages to explain the pervasive effects of sin on human nature.

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.

 

[Magenta]

There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Romans 3 verses 11-12; Romans 8 verses 5-8; 2 Timothy 2 verses 25-26

 

[Magenta]

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

 

[Magenta]

Man is born in transgression and sin (Psalm 51 verse 5, 58 verse 3), dead in transgressions (Ephesians 2 verse 5), his heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), held captive by a love for sin (John 3 verse 19; John 8 verse 34), so that he will not seek God (Romans 3 verses 10-11), because he loves the darkness (John 3 verse 19), and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), nor can he change himself (Jeremiah 13 verse 23). He suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1 verse 18) and continues to willfully live in sin because he is totally depraved; this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14 verse 12); they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1 verse 18), and their mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8 verse 7).

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

For when it comes to the unrighteousness of man?
It is not actually total depravity.
But, the total incapacitation of man.

Man is not totally incapacitated from doing good. He is totally incapacitated from undoing the effect of Adam's sin, ie, separation from God. Therefore, he cannot work perfect righteousness, which is required to dwell in God's presence.

David said that no man seeks God, but wasn't David seeking God? Of course he was. His statement is analogous to someone being surrounded by a culture of falsehood and in frustration saying everyone is a liar. It's hyperbole.

Elijah in a moment of frustration and helplessness told God that he was the only faithful Israelite left, which of course wasn't true

 

[brightfame52]

If man were in a state of total depravity?
Total = 100% depraved?
Then God would have NOTHING to save!

Thats ridiculous, thats what Gives God all the Glory for saving by grace since men are naturally 100% depraved spiritually or dead in sin. Here is Gods indictment on us as natural born sinners Rom 3:9-19

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

 

[Magenta]

Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[sawdust]

Man is not totally incapacitated from doing good.

I have to wonder if we can call the good works of man "good" when they are not done in faith?

We know without faith we cannot please God Heb.11:6 and James teaches us that his works are the visible manifestation of his faith Jm.2:18 therefore, I question whether man truly does any "good" work?

 

[Magenta]

The gospel is foolishness to the natural man, since he can neither accept nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. It is impossible for his incurably wicked heart to grow the seed of God’s Word into the good fruit of faith while he is captive to the will of the devil. Along with the rest of the world who does not know God, he is blinded to the truth and under the power and influence of Satan, rendered incapable of submitting to or obeying God, with Whom he is inherently hostile toward in his mind, for he craves what is contrary to the Spirit. He suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, refusing to come into the light because he is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, defined as darkness itself, and his deeds are evil.

 

[Genez]

Total depravity and total inabilty are closely related, and effectually are the same thing, so I use one for the other. Total inability is total incapacitation

In what we are dealing with, they are not the same things.

Total depravity means everything about the person is corrupt.
Both body and soul = depraved.
That means that the soul would reject God even if outside the body.

Paul tells us in Romans 7:18 that there is no good thing to be found in him, where?
In his flesh.

​

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. ​

For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out."​

Guess what?
That does not mean that no good thing is to be found in his soul!

But our souls were slaves, born into a state where the soul was a slave to the flesh.

If God can emancipate the soul from the flesh's dominance?
Do so by the power of His grace?

Then!
That soul would be made free to make a choice concerning God, as his own soul would determine free of coercion.

That is why we must be saved by grace, so we can make our own choice as our soul truly desires.

That means?

Those who reject God while under grace can not blame their flesh for doing so!
For that very soul becomes accountable to God, because of the grace it was given, to decide what it freely believes!

Just like some angels hated and rejected the Lord?
Men while under God's moments of freeing grace will choose in their souls to do the same!

No excuse is left for them.

 

[Genez]

Man is not totally incapacitated from doing good.

Good. But only according to our human standards.
That is called, "human good."

But, good when done in the filling of the Spirit?
It is called, "divine good."

Human good = "wood, hay, and stubble."

Divine good = "gold, silver, and precious stones."

Grace and peace .............

 

[sawdust]

In what we are dealing with, they are not the same things.

Total depravity means everything about the person is corrupt.
Both body and soul = depraved.
That means that the soul would reject God even if outside the body.

Paul tells us in Romans 7:18 that there is no good thing to be found in him, where?
In his flesh.

​

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. ​

For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out."​

Guess what?
That does not mean that no good thing is to be found in his soul!

But our souls were slaves, born into a state where the soul was a slave to the flesh.

If God can emancipate the soul from the flesh's dominance?
Do so by the power of His grace?

Then!
That soul would be made free to make a choice concerning God, as his own soul would determine free of coercion.

That is why we must be saved by grace, so we can make our own choice as our soul truly desires.

That means?

Those who reject God while under grace can not blame their flesh for doing so!
For that very soul becomes accountable to God, because of the grace it was given, to decide what it freely believes!

Just like some angels hated and rejected the Lord?
Men while under God's moments of freeing grace will choose in their souls to do the same!

No excuse is left for them.

It might be worth mentioning, I believe if that soul, through the process above continues to reject the grace of God and His mercy, then that person does become totally depraved both in body and soul.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Good. But only according to our human standards.
That is called, "human good."

But, good when done in the filling of the Spirit?
It is called, "divine good."

Human good = "wood, hay, and stubble."

Divine good = "gold, silver, and precious stones."

Grace and peace .............

Is treating another like you want to be treated a human good? No, it's the highest divine law.

 

[Magenta]

Total depravity means everything about the person is corrupt.
Both body and soul = depraved.
That means that the soul would reject God even if outside the body.

Read the Bible, start with Genesis, where you will find:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed
into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.