Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! -- Luke 1:39-42 ESV

Errrrr......she was saved already.
Luk 1:6
Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous in God's eyes, careful to obey all of the Lord's commandments and regulations.

 

[DeanM]

Huh? Adoption is the result

How does God adopt someone who is already chosen? And why would He have to?

 

[NightTwister]

Errrrr......she was saved already.
Luk 1:6
Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous in God's eyes, careful to obey all of the Lord's commandments and regulations.

John, still in the womb was saved already?

 

[rogerg]

How does God adopt someone who is already chosen? And why would He have to?

It is the manifestation and realization of having been chosen - it is how the Father implements His choices

 

[lrs68]

John, still in the womb was already a believer?

The Angel prophesied about John so John was specific. You should know this but here you are misleading this true experience to match your doctrine. That is how we know your doctrine is false.

 

[NightTwister]

The Angel prophesied about John so John was specific. You should know this but here you are misleading this true experience to match your doctrine. That is how we know your doctrine is false.

As usual you obfuscate instead of answering the question. It's like the five rules of dodgeball freewill doctrine: dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

 

[studier]

Copy and paste:

The term teleios (Greek: τέλειος) carries rich theological and philosophical significance, especially in Christian contexts. Based on surrounding page content and biblical usage, here's a breakdown of its meaning:

Core Meaning

• Teleios stems from the root word telos, meaning “end,” “goal,” or “purpose.”
• It’s often translated as “perfect,” “complete,” or “mature.”
• In biblical Greek, it refers not to flawlessness, but to spiritual maturity or wholeness—a person or thing that has reached its intended purpose2.

Biblical Usage

• James 1:4: “Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.” Here, teleios reflects the process of spiritual growth through endurance.
• 1 John 4:18: “Perfect love drives out fear.” The word “perfect” here is teleios, suggesting love that has matured and fulfilled its divine purpose.
• Matthew 5:48: “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” This verse uses teleios to call believers toward full commitment and spiritual integrity.

Spiritual Implication

• Being teleios is a lifelong journey—not instant perfection, but a steady movement toward becoming more Christ-like.
• It involves growth through faith, perseverance, and love, culminating in a life that reflects God’s design

Nice work!

Love the command of Jesus in Matt5:48.

Add Heb5:5-11 re: Jesus Christ (5:9 teleioō after 5:8 learned obedience) then 5:10-6:3 re: the rebuke of the Christian not becoming teleios and how the privilege is controlled by God's permission Heb6:3.

Add Phil3 and how Paul is speaking of being in pursuit of being teleioō and as he's discussing in 1Cor2 of talking advanced Christian doctrine with the teleios Christian, he's doing the same thing here Phil3:15 - talking advanced Christian doctrine with the mature (and synonymously the spiritual Christian) - his pursuit of the high call of God in Christ Jesus Phil3:14 - arrival at the resurrection Phil3:11. These are type of things he could not yet speak to the immature about (1Cor3) and in no way could speak to the psuchikos-soulish human wisdom crowd of 1Cor2:14 about.

These are the things we should be discussing. But Paul says it's for the telios and the pneumatikos and not the nepios and certainly not the psuchikos Christ loathers.

 

[lrs68]

As usual you obfuscate instead of answering the question.

Claim what you will in order to save face but John was prophesied to be the one preparing the way for Jesus. Of course John would be filled with God unlike you and myself and others were. You just hate the TRUTH!

 

[NightTwister]

Claim what you will in order to save face but John was prophesied to be the one preparing the way for Jesus. Of course John would be filled with God unlike you and myself and others were. You just hate the TRUTH!

You still haven't answered the question. What John a believer in the womb?

 

[BillyBob]

Yes. I wonder why John the baptist was calling for people to repent before the savior started his ministry?

John the Baptist does not know who will or will not believe. He is a messenger of God, and God will use his call to change the heart of His people. Not all are His people!

 

[Magenta]

Salvation through Christ is what was predestined. Some throughout the OT and others were chosen before birth to do great things. Mary, the apostles etc. Calvinists I suppose think they are in this group? Now lets see the red x's and cherry picked scriptures.

We know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called
according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the
image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He
predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

I take it you do not believe you are included in this.

 

[Genez]

Hating God's sovereignty is built into your vain self-exalting doctrine.

The way you have God's sovereignty figured is to throw your life to fatalism.
That God never discusses anything with you.
That He dictates and you only take notes.

No question and answer time.
That no request is really a request.

We are the Bride of Christ.
Your determinism makes us into a Muslim bride.

 

[DeanM]

John the Baptist does not know who will or will not believe. He is a messenger of God, and God will use his call to change the heart of His people. Not all are His people!

Oh so repentence before salvation isnt truth?

 

[lrs68]

You still haven't answered the question. What John a believer in the womb?

We know the Angel told Zachariah he would have a son who would do work for God. So John was on a specific mission which was to announce the way of Jesus. So he would definitely be saved from conception because he was specifically prophesied.

You was not prophesied to your dad by an Angel so you and myself would never be like the situation surrounding John.

But you know this and just being deceptive.

 

[DeanM]

We know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called
according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the
image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He
predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

I take it you do not believe you are included in this.

Were you chosen before the foundation of the universe?

 

[Rufus]

(cut to save space)

In 1Cor2:14 Paul is comparing and contrasting these psuchikos-Greek scholars first with the teleios-mature Christian 1Cor2:6 and the pneumatikos-spiritual Christian 1Cor2:15. Paul uses both of these words – teleios-mature and pneumatikos-spiritual – basically synonymously to speak of the spiritually mature Christian who he can speak advanced Christian doctrines to. He also contrasts pneumatikos-spiritual (and thus teleios-mature) to the nepios-infant-child Christian to whom he cannot yet speak to re: these advanced Christian doctrines 1Cor3.

Paul is drawing a contrast mainly between the Greek scholar and the mature-spiritual Christian who has the Spirit of God. The best of the Greek scholars does not welcome advanced Christian teaching because they think it’s nonsense. And they can’t know it because they don’t have God’s Spirit. I’ve already dealt with the grammatical structure of the language in these verses. The main issue is they think God’s wisdom is nonsense. They in their self and culturally inflated minds place their own wisdom above anything supposedly of the Jewish God. And this was also part of the problem – the cultural multitude of gods.

So, back to the issue on this and other threads on this forum re: the psuchikos-Greek scholar and the Gospel:

• The issue here is not about the basic message of the Gospel.
• The issue is about the best of the Greek scholars without the Spirit of God vs. men like Paul and other mature-spiritual Christians with the Spirit of God. The best of the Greeks cannot understand the advanced teachings of Christianity. Their main problem is self-inflated human wisdom makes them unreceptive to God’s wisdom which they view as nonsense. This view keeps the best of the Greeks from welcoming the advanced teachings of God’s Spirit.
• Regarding the basics of the Gospel of Christ:
  • Paul has not been speaking of the Gospel since 1Cor2:5
  • Paul from 1Cor2:6-16 is dealing with the best of the Greeks compared to the mature-spiritual Christian with the Spirit. The best of the Greeks cannot know what the spiritually educated Christian knows.
  • Nor can the nepios-baby Christian who is still fleshly-sarkikos know these advanced Christian doctrines 1Cor3. So the issue is not basics of the Gospel, but the advanced Christians doctrines that neither the baby and still carnal Christian, nor the psuchikos-soulish Greek scholar can know.
  • To explain more of how the Bible presents the psuchikos-soulish man and why Paul is not dealing with the basics of the Gospel, we can compare him with Jude and James re; the psuchikos-soulish man:
    • Jude is summoning Christians to exert intense effort for the once-for-all delivered faith – our common salvation. The faith is all Christian doctrine having to do with our salvation.
      • In Jude1:19 he identifies the enemies as the psuchikoi-soulish men (plural of psuchikos-soulish man). Jude is speaking of these men’s condition and ungodliness and not limiting to Greek scholars but including all the soulish, ungodly.
      • A few of their characteristics are:
      • They are ungodly – irreverent towards God
      • They change God’s grace into licentiousness – no moral restraints
      • They refuse-disdain-deny-repudiate the only despotēs – the only absolute legal authority – God and/even our Lord Jesus Christ. So, according to Jude these psuchikoi-soulish men do understand the issue of who God is but they refuse Him, they disdain (loathe), deny, repudiate Him. They know who God is – they know who Jesus Christ is – they know the Gospel of Jesus Christ – they simply loathe Him. (cut to save space)
• 1Cor2:14 is simply not about the ability to understand the foundational Gospel of Jesus Christ.
• In fact, when we include the information from Jude, he specifically tells us these psuchikoi-soulish men do know and understand the foundational Gospel of Jesus the Christ.
• These psuchikoi-soulish men specifically reject and loathe the authority of Jesus Christ which is to reject the foundational Gospel message that Jesus is the Christ (which is Paul’s foundational Gospel) which Jude states as being the faith we need to fight for – our common salvation – Jesus Christ is the only absolute legal authority (despotēs).

There’s just no way that I can see the deterministic interpretation of the “natural” man not being able to understand the foundational message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They know it and think it’s nonsense and they loathe it and Him. They think they’re wiser than the Hebrew God. That’s their issue.

There are other Scriptures that are difficult to interpret in regard to deterministic vs. non-deterministic traditions. 1Cor2:14 IMO is simply not one of them.

All of which proves those fools (not to be confused with the wise) who reject the authority of Christ and his gospel never had true understanding. And why did you conveniently omit the text below from the context of 1Cor 2:

1 Cor 2:8
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory...?
NIV

Learn a few things about your soulmates who you apparently think are chock full of Gospel understanding:

Fools are characterized as or known for:

1. being wicked (2Sam 13:13; Ps 94:3,8; Isa 35:8)
2. mockers of God (Ps 74:22)
3. not understanding their bleak eternal destiny (Ps 92:6)
4. being rebellious (Ps 107:17)
5. despising spiritual wisdom (Prov 1:7)
6. hating spiritual knowledge (Prov 1:22)
7. mockers delighting in mockery (Prov 1:22)
8. being wayward and complacent (Prov 1:32)
9. being wicked and held up to shame by God (Prov 3:33,35)
10. dying for their lack of knowledge (Prov 10:21)
11. having hearts that blurt our folly (Prov 12:23)
12. detesting the thought to turn away from evil (Prov 13:19
13. bringing harm to their companions (Prov 13:20)
14. folly in their heart that is deception (Prov 14:8)
15.mockers at making amends for their sins (Prov 14:9)
16. known for their folly that only yields folly (Prov 14:
17. not spreading true [spiritual] knowledge (Prov 15:7)
18. their folly that brings them punishment (Prov 16:22)
20. being ignorant of their wrong-doings (Eccl 5:1)
21. being unpleasing to God (Eccl 5:4)
22. having hearts that are in the house of pleasure (Eccl 7:4)
23. their laughter as being meaningless (Eccl 7:6)
24. their anger residing in their laps (Eccl 7:9)
25. thinking of themselves as wise counselors but only giving senseless advice (Ia 19:11)
26. not being willing to walk in the Way of Holiness (Isa 35:8)
27. not knowing God (Jer 4:22)
28. being false prophets (Jer 50:36)
29. being equated with the wicked (1Sam 25:25)
30. at times for recognizing themselves as being great sinners (1Sam 26:21)
31. resentment or envy slaying them (Job 5:2)
31. denying the existence of God (Ps 14:1; 53:1)
32. their chatterings that bring them to ruin (Prov 10:10,14)
33. the spreaders of slander (Prov 10:18)
34. finding pleasure in evil conduct (Prov 10:23)
35. choosing a way that seems right to them and ignoring good advice (Prov 12:15)
36. for angering quickly (Prov 12:16; 20:3; 29:11)
37. exposing their own folly (Prov 13:16)
38. being hotheaded and reckless (Prov 14:16)
39. having mouths that gush folly (Prov 15:2)
40.having mouths that feed on folly (Prov 15:14)
41. spurning their father's discipline (Prov 15:5)
42. having no desire to get wisdom (Prov 17:16)
43. finding no pleasure in understanding (Prov 18:2)
44. delighting in airing his own opinions (Prov 18:2)
45. having perverse lips (Prov 19:1)
46. scorning the wisdom of wise words if the wise speak to them (Prov 23:9)
47. their proverbs being as useless as a lame man's legs hanging limp (Prov 26:7).
48. a dog that returns to its vomit when it repeats its folly (Prov 26:11)
49. their provocation which is heavier than stone and sand (Prov 27:3).
50. their great reluctance in removing their folly from themselves (rov 27:22).
51. trusting in themselves (Prov 28:26)
52. raging and scoffing at the wise man with whom he goes to court (Prov 29:9)
53. playing the fool, exalting themselves or planning evil (Prov 30:32)
54. walking in the darkness (Eccl 2:14)
55. folding their hands and bringing ruin to themselves (Eccl 4:5)
56. their speech that pours out many words (Eccl 5:3)
57. lacking sense and showing everyone how stupid they are (Eccl 10:13)
58. being consumed by their own lips (Eccl 10:12)
59. multiplying their own words (Eccl 10:14)
60. speaking folly (Isa 32:6)
61. their minds being busy with evil (Isa 32:6)
62. practicing ungodliness and spreading error concerning the Lord (Isa 32:6)
63. leaving the hungry empty and withholding water from the thirsty (Isa 32:6)
64. gaining riches by unjust gains (Jer 17:11)

I suppose next you'll try to convince us that not all "Greek" unbelievers are fools?

 

[Magenta]

John, still in the womb was already a believer?

Said of John the Baptist in Luke 1

He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice at his birth, for he will be great in the
sight of the Lord. He shall never take wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit
even from his mother’s womb. Many of the sons of Israel he will turn back to the Lord their God.

 

[DeanM]

Said of John the Baptist in Luke 1

He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice at his birth, for he will be great in the
sight of the Lord. He shall never take wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit
even from his mother’s womb. Many of the sons of Israel he will turn back to the Lord their God.

John yes. Im asking about you.

 

[Magenta]

Were you chosen before the foundation of the universe?

Before you ran away with your tail tucked between your legs yesterday you made it clear you were
not interested in my views. Were you lying, or have you changed your mind, or what is going on?

Are you going to answer my questions or do you just want to interrogate me?

John yes. Im asking about you.

I was not quoting/responding to you there. Are you confused?

 

[DeanM]

Before you ran away with your tail tucked between your legs yesterday you made it clear you were
not interested in my views. Were you lying or have you changed your mind, or what is going on?


I was not quoting/responding to you there. Are you confused?

No im not. How about you answer the question? Maybe you can find a meme?