Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

All men are drawn.
But, God will not send in missionaries where His drawing is being rejected.

Those who rejected God's drawing may not hear about the Cross.
But! They will be shown they are still without excuse!

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness ​

and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since ​

what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain ​

to them. For since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities—his eternal ​

power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what ​

has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20​

It is the drawing of God of all men that brings men who will keep on accepting it to the point of the Cross being shown to them.

Those who never hear will be responsible for their snubbing of God's drawing them.

All fine. What I'm asking is what is the drawing Jesus does in relation those who have never heard the gospel? What does it consist of? How is it manifested?

 

[Magenta]

To claim Jesus only draws those who hear of Him reduces His words to limited human ideas.

John 10 verses 27-28 My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus simply says He'll draw all [men}.

Jesus also says all sin and all who sin are slaves to sin, and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit, that salvation is impossible with man. Verses like these regularly get rejected by your ilk. Do you reject them also? Most free willers seem to, being Pelagian heretics. You yourself come across as being completely ignorant of the ramifications of what you teach regarding the flesh bringing forth fruit unto life, which is the core of the self-exalting FW belief philosophy, which is the opposite of what Scripture explicitly articulates.

 

[Rufus]

God is love. He wants the highest and best for those who hate Him but they refuse to accept His grace.

Yes, choosing believing individuals and allocating them to their time and purpose. God saves believers and chooses (elects) what to do with them and where to place them. Election is for a purpose and that purpose is to be in Christ (Church) or to lead a people out of slavery (Moses) or to make a nation from which would come the Messiah (Jacob aka Israel) or to be the father of many nations (Abraham) or to be in the Garden (Adam) or to be the sole surviving family of a great flood (Noah).

If God chooses people for salvation He doesn't need to foreknow them, for who and what they are, is completely irrelevant. He can get the same result by closing His eyes and simply pointing .. you, you, you and you! [/QUOTE]

Wrong! To know someone in the biblical sense is to be in personal, intimate, loving, covenantal relationship with the Lord. In both Testaments, the term rendered "know" in many translations also denotes intimate, personal sexual relationship.

Judg 19:22, 24-25
22 As they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, worthless fellows, surrounded the house, beating on the door. And they said to the old man, the master of the house, "Bring out the man who came into your house, that we may KNOW him."... 24 Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine. Let me bring them out now. Violate them and do with them what seems good to you, but against this man do not do this outrageous thing." 25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine and made her go out to them. And they KNEW her and abused her all night until the morning. And as the dawn began to break, they let her go
ESV

And one other thing...to NOT be foreknown by God is to be in a state of condemnation (Mat 7:23).

 

[GWH]

Your verse citations make no sense, having no connection to what you link them to (spiritual maturity, Christ returns at God’s resurrection, etc).

I am always open to improvement, so let us examine the citations in order to see how they are connected to "Accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord".

John 14:6 - "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Accepting Jesus as Messiah/the incarnate Son is the true way to attain eternal life or heaven that begins
after Christ returns at God’s resurrection.

Romans 8:6-17a - "The mind of the sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace... Now if we are children,
then we are heirs-heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ."
The sinful man who rejects Jesus as Messiah will not attain/inherit eternal life with Christ at God's resurrection, whereas the mind
controlled by the Spirit strives to eliminate sins or become spiritually mature and will inherit heaven.

Galatians 6:7-9 - "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction, the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."
The one who pleases his sinful nature does not please God, but the one who pleases the Spirit by becoming more loving will inherit or reap heaven.

Perhaps now that you have seen these examples, you can make sense of the rest?
(Connecting biblical dots is my gift :^)

 

[Rufus]

God can not coerce it.

If He could?

Everyone would be saved.

What about when God rescues someone from their vile, wicked, evil, heart?

Tell me: Did God rescue the ancient Hebrews from Egypt or did he coerce them to leave their slavery?

 

[Cameron143]

I earlier provided the verses I would be looking at in context for John6:44 - John6:43-47.

In John12:33 John tells us Jesus was speaking of the crucifixion. There's more re: Jesus in context from John12. So, though His crucifixion was His main point in those few verses, there's far more stated as to who He is and what is taking place and what will take place.

In John 6, I thought that's you were referring to. I disagree with your conclusion of what it means and believe you are guilty of the same thing you denounce in others, and insert your ideology. Don't have time to go back and compare your understanding with the verses themselves at present. Will try later.

In John 12:32, agree that the cross is in view. You still haven't made the case that people who have never heard of the cross are a part of "all men".

 

[Rufus]

The plan was chosen outside of time, to be offered in time. Individuals in time then make a choice to either receive or refuse the offering of the plan during their time.

Individuals are never forced to choose to receive or refuse the offering of the plan, neither outside of time nor inside of it, as this would invalidate both the plan and their choice.

On the other hand, man's ways are NOT in himself (Prov 16:1, 9, 33; 19:21; 20:24; 21:1; Isa 46:10; Jer 10:23; Dan 5:23; Act 4:23-28; Rom 9:14-18). Don't you know that the Potter OWNS all His clay pots just like He owns all the cattle on a "thousand" hills.

 

[Magenta]

What about when God rescues someone from their vile, wicked, evil, heart?

Tell me: Did God rescue the ancient Hebrews from Egypt or did he coerce them to leave their slavery?

Oh, my, these heretics do not believe what the Bible says of man and his incurably wicked heart.

If they did believe what the Bible says, they would abandon their vain self-exalting anti-Biblical stance.

 

[studier]

The particular group is just as viable as an all-inclusive group. Both meet the requirement of plurality.
If you choose to exclude the other groups you need an explanation for those since the cross who have never heard of Christ. How do these fit into all men being drawn by Christ?

Asked and answered re: both your importation into the language to limit all men to some specific group and to limit drawing to hearing.

 

[Magenta]

On the other hand, man's ways are NOT in himself (Prov 16:1, 9, 33; 19:21; 20:24; 21:1; Isa 46:10; Jer 10:23; Dan 5:23; Act 4:23-28;
Rom 9:14-18). Don't you know that the Potter OWNS all His clay pots just like He owns all the cattle on a "thousand" hills.

The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Isaiah 14 verse 24 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the purposes of His heart to all generations. Psalm 33 verse 11 Our God is in heaven; He does as He pleases. Psalm 115 verse 3 Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail. Proverbs 19 verse 21 In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will. Ephesians 1 verse 11 And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. Romans 8 verses 28-30 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1 verses 4-5

 

[Rufus]

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, ​

that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. ​

Predestine to be conformed to the Image of His Son? = Means?

The Church in our resurrection body, having a body just like His own glorious body!

He also predestined us to be conformed to the image of his Son!​

​

grace and peace ......

The fact that you even ask this kind of question betrays your total ignorance of scripture! Is it not far superior, better, beneficial and blessed for the elect to be conformed to the obedience of the Last Adam instead of being left in the image of the disobedient Adam?

P.S. I just answered the question for you in case your mind is too dull to see it.

 

[Rufus]

Your total misapprehension (actually inversion) of EVERY ONE of those entries (ALL OF THEM) is a manifestation of your shocking abysmal Biblical illiteracy.

The failures are truly epic and never cease. You are literally batting zero and have been as long as I have known you.

You would think that a 100% failure rate 100% of the time would be nearly impossible. But nope. Against all odds you have achieved the unthinkable.

Your collaborators are pretty much neck and neck with you. It's truly incredible.

And BTW, all of those passages have already been RIGHTLY EXEGETED on this thread and others. Over and over again.

Seems like a tragic comedy that will have a sad ending.

The real "tragic comedy" is that you were totally incapable of answering any of Cam's questions, Mr. Wanna-be guru! Instead, you opt to go off on him in one of your demonically-inspired, hate-filled tirades.

 

[Cameron143]

Asked and answered re: both your importation into the language to limit all men to some specific group and to limit drawing to hearing.

Then I missed it. Can you please give me an example of what occurs when Christ draws an individual to Himself who has never heard of the cross.

 

[cv5]

The particular group is just as viable as an all-inclusive group. Both meet the requirement of plurality.
If you choose to exclude the other groups you need an explanation for those since the cross who have never heard of Christ. How do these fit into all men being drawn by Christ?

"If you torture the text enough, it will confess to anything".

Regards
The Calvinists

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

ABSOLUTELY!!!! As humans we have complete control of our "WILL" - IN CASES WHERE THE DECISION RESTS COMPLETELY WITH THE INDIVIDUAL.

Obviously, if our WILL is to fly like a bird, it won't happen for purely physical reasons which our WILL can't control.

If our WILL is to deny the existence of GOD, and denigrate His influence and character, we're totally free to do that, and live in denial

If it's our will to subjugate ourselves to God's WILL, we're totally free to do just that also.

 

[studier]

Oh....
I tried... Bobby holds no interest for me.

I wish he did. But his dad was so great, I feel it would be wrong to see him as a replacement.

God always knew that RBT Jr's words would be captured on audio.
When RBT taught years ago, the Lord knew the message would be also for those hearing it reproduced today.

After all.

Thanks!

Not too much unlike my experience. I was in transition from ending seminary and ordination just as RBT was leaving the pulpit. I began as he ended and flowing with and following the change was not my direction.

 

[Cameron143]

Asked and answered re: both your importation into the language to limit all men to some specific group and to limit drawing to hearing.

I don't recall the subject of hearing coming up in our discussion. Can you point it out to me?

 

[studier]

I don't recall the subject of hearing coming up in our discussion. Can you point it out to me?

Just read back a few posts.

 

[Rufus]

In John 6, I thought that's you were referring to. I disagree with your conclusion of what it means and believe you are guilty of the same thing you denounce in others, and insert your ideology. Don't have time to go back and compare your understanding with the verses themselves at present. Will try later.

In John 12:32, agree that the cross is in view. You still haven't made the case that people who have never heard of the cross are a part of "all men".

AND...our wanna-be bible scholar must also address the reality of Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it). And that reality is that most men are not drawn to Christ, even when they do hear, because they want nothing to do with Him and are quite content to retain their own individual beliefs. This proves that the Father never gave such men to his Son.