Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

I said election is about God choosing saved people for His purpose. It is not simply choosing people. That tells us nothing about election.

Reformed teaching is God chooses who will be saved without any respect to their person so it cannot be "particular" people He saves because there is nothing particular about them according to the Reformed.

He chose a set of people to fulfill a purpose. He didn't choose a purpose to fulfill a people. It's no different than choosing Israel to be His people. He chose them with a purpose in mind. They fulfilled that purpose. Likewise, those chosen in Christ will fulfill God's purpose.

 

[cv5]

God saves believers, He does not save us so we can believe.

Correct. That is the plan.

 

[brightfame52]

@sawdust

Election is choosing saved people for the purpose of God. God does not elect the unsaved.

His choice was of some who were in themselves the ungodly. Christ died for them while in that condition Rom 5

6 For when we[The elect[ were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 8:33-34


33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[BillyBob]

When we believe, we evidence that God has indeed done a work in us, has transformed us, has converted us. Until He has, no one believes.

I believe this is true. Man often looks at belief, faith, etc, as being a requirement to achieve salvation, when in reality it is gift given by grace to God's people.

 

[cv5]

He calls the purpose of God according to election to stand not by works (but by faith that Jacob exhibited in his willingness to obtain it for himself as opposed to Esau's disregard for...)?

How about that?

God "called", Jacob responded, believing Him. And Jacob never "stopped believing".

Done deal.

 

[NightTwister]

God saves believers, He does not save us so we can believe.

Not sure who this is directed to. That last part of the sentence isn't reformed teaching.

 

[Mem]

So that we might get somewhere in regard to practical application of the teaching...
God chose us in Him....So, we should, first, get in Him in order to qualify as the "us." That is, seek, knock, find, the Door, and He will open, as He assures.

 

[BillyBob]

"the perfect plan".

God makes the choice Himself, and does not tell us why other than it was His good pleasure. That is the perfect plan, having mercy on some. There would none saved if it were up to fallen man!

 

[Mem]

Election is choosing saved people for the purpose of God. God does not elect the unsaved.

According to Reformed theology there is absolutely nothing particular about the people God elects, He chooses whoever and they are unable to resist His grace. If they have some particular quality then Reformed theology contradicts itself.

The particular quality God takes note of is faith as demonstrated by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Although many groups fall under the category of reformed theology, Calvinist strike me as adopting theirs in order to secure a licentiousness that dismissing them from any scrutiny at the same time it offers them unlimited authority such as to believe that, in persecuting other Christians, they think they do God a service. The Puritans treatment of the Quakers, for example.

 

[brightfame52]

God choosing saved people for His purpose

Basically agree. God is choosing those who choose to receive the offer, sealing the COVENANT.

There are no other options or contingencies. It's the one and only way, "the perfect plan".

If salvation is by God it is by grace, if salvation, however, comes as a reward for what a man has done then it is according to works, and not solely according to grace as the Scriptures declare.

 

[studier]

Now you've introduced something else. Everyone assents to God drawing first. But it doesn't say He draws all.

Care to discuss this with Scripture including John12:32 and I assume John6:43-47?

 

[lrs68]

You wouldn't be welcome to preach in a reformed church, so that works out well.

See how GOOD GOD is?

Praise the LORD!

 

[lrs68]

Yet, you make statements of fact without knowing. It undermines anything that you say, since you now admit you didn't really know.

Not sure your post has any value since I am directly quoting true Reformed members. But you remain in denial it seems to fit the state of mind that you are in.

 

[BillyBob]

If salvation is by God it is by grace, if salvation, however, comes as a reward for what a man has done then it is according to works, and not solely according to grace as the Scriptures declare.

We are told that salvation is by grace alone. Therefore, there are no ifs required. You cannot mix works and grace. The two cannot coexist. Rom 11:6

 

[Edward429451]

I believe this is true. Man often looks at belief, faith, etc, as being a requirement to achieve salvation, when in reality it is gift given by grace to God's people.

Technically you are right and I agree. However in a Practical sense, not so much. because when we sign up for the Lord's team, it will guaranteed come with requirements. To whom more is given, more will be required.

There's four levels of relationship with the Lord, Servant, Friend, Son, Bride. Servants have salvation, eternal life. Will the servants reward be as much as a Friends? A son's? Prolly not.

We all read the parable of the unprofitable servant Mathew 25:14-30 and the lazy unprofitable servant gets cast into outer darkness. So all of us Brothers & Sisters have a duty to perform and if we shirk our Christian duty there is consequences.

Luckily the Lord doesn't expect perfection from us, except in that perfection of intent within our heart for He looks at the heart.

 

[BillyBob]

Technically you are right and I agree. However in a Practical sense, not so much. because when we sign up for the Lord's team, it will guaranteed come with requirements. To whom more is given, more will be required.

There's four levels of relationship with the Lord, Servant, Friend, Son, Bride. Servants have salvation, eternal life. Will the servants reward be as much as a Friends? A son's? Prolly not.

We all read the parable of the unprofitable servant Mathew 25:14-30 and the lazy unprofitable servant gets cast into outer darkness. So all of us Brothers & Sisters have a duty to perform and if we shirk our Christian duty there is consequences.

Luckily the Lord doesn't expect perfection from us, except in that perfection of intent within our heart for He looks at the heart.

There are works set aside for God's people. However, acceptable works are ordained by God for saved people to perform. These works are not performed prior to salvation, but only after a man is saved.

 

[NightTwister]

Not sure your post has any value since I am directly quoting true Reformed members. But you remain in denial it seems to fit the state of mind that you are in.

You're quoting baptist reformed members, who clearly also don't know the truth. Then you admit you weren't correct, even though you stated it as fact. This is a repeated pattern with you. You insult, redefine terms, and bear false witness constantly. I really hope that you aren't in any pulpit.

 

[cv5]

If salvation is by God it is by grace, if salvation, however, comes as a reward for what a man has done then it is according to works, and not solely according to grace as the Scriptures declare.

What does Calvinism have to do with God "keeping covenant" with those who believe Him and "enter in"?

Absolutely nothing.

 

[lrs68]

You're quoting baptist reformed members, who clearly also don't know the truth. Then you admit you weren't correct, even though you stated it as fact. This is a repeated pattern with you. You insult, redefine terms, and bear false witness constantly. I really hope that you aren't in any pulpit.

How do they not know the truth?
As a Preacher who attends most "Christian Men's" events for all Denominations + we do weekly men's prayer and breakfast and several other events likewise. So I am talking to Reformed Pastors, Evangelist's, Deacons, Church Leaders face to face [(not to some imaginary source online)]. I truly believe they are correct in their explanations.

 

[Genez]

I don't have a hard time with any of it. It's plain as day to me. And while you told me who the whom is, you didn't explain why God would say whom He foreknew rather than what He foreknew about whom. The plain language of the text says foreknowing whom. That's talking about people, and not facts about people.

Telling me that Jacob and Esau are different example of foreknowledge and not telling me why doesn't really answer my question. Nor did it answer the questions about the demonstration of God's sovereignty in the arena of mercy or forming vessels of mercy and the vessels fit for destruction.

I think your silly.