Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

Again, as long as you retain your own definition ignoring established reference materials, you can pretty much say what you want and think it makes sense. The Scripture I referenced speaks of Divine Wisdom vs. human wisdom and per God, becoming mature and controlling our tongues. Assuming we've all read and understand these Scriptures we should all have been convicted - we should all recognize - what we're called to be in Christ. The fact that we see so much activity contrary to this, shows volition well in play once more - choosing to disregard Divine Wisdom and exercising little control over our tongues. Recognition > Choose to believe or not believe.

So you inform me that I'm a sinner and I don't believe you but I have been convicted?

 

[Cameron143]

Seems like sanctification before justification... that definitely creates problems.

It's called salvation.

 

[Kroogz]

Likewise no joy in heaven for the sinner that repents.

Yep. No joy......the fruit of determinism. As can be witnessed here 24/7.

When was the last time you saw a reformed/calvie/tulip person even mention The Lord Jesus Christ?

The Lord Jesus Christ seems to not be in their vocabulary.

It's the "natural man." .......That is their focus. They completely overlook what the Lord Jesus Christ DID for the "natural man."

 

[HeIsHere]

An accurate assessment.

As has been resoundingly demonstrated on this thread, any hack belching out an incomprehensible word salad that defies every rule of hermeneutics and logic gets the nod from the entrenched super-determinists around here.

In fact they prefer it that way. The more chaos the better. Their very survival depends upon it.

Yes they are using scripture to defend the system, the system came first and then the doublespeak was developed.

Here is the list, quite accurate.

• All / World – In many passages, Calvinists interpret all or world not as “every individual without exception,” but as “people from all nations, not just Jews,” or “the world of the elect.”
• Whosoever – Instead of meaning “anyone at all,” it is taken as “whoever believes,” with the assumption that only those enabled by God’s effectual grace will actually believe.
• Foreknowledge – Rather than God simply knowing future choices, Calvinists interpret this as God’s fore-loving or sovereignly choosing certain people beforehand.
• Predestination – Understood not as a general plan for all who freely choose Christ, but as God’s specific eternal decree of who will be saved (and sometimes who will not).
• Election – Seen as unconditional, based solely on God’s will, rather than conditional on human faith or response.
• Grace – Interpreted as irresistible grace for the elect (effectual calling), not prevenient grace offered to all.
• Faith – Not an act of free human response, but itself a gift granted only to the elect.
• Dead in sin – Taken to mean total spiritual inability to respond to God at all without prior regeneration.
• Regeneration – Understood as occurring before faith (God makes one alive, which causes faith), rather than faith leading to regeneration.
• Atonement – Limited to the elect, not universal in scope, even if sufficient for all (Chat GPT)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

 

[Cameron143]

A while back you told me to go back to the drawing board. I didn't tell you that it at that time already contained at least 5 logical fallacies you had put forth by then. I simply highlighted only one of them.

Your response here contains at least seven of such errors: circular reasoning, equivocation, begging the question, false cause, straw man, lexical dismissal, and ad hominem. Redefining terms, then using those redefinitions to override both BDAG and Scripture, doesn’t clarify—it compounds the error. Ignoring or overriding established lexical tools like BDAG is already a substantial problem evidenced in your reasoning and methods. Compounding that with this many logical violations makes the argument too incoherent to take remotely seriously.

As you say, grace and peace...

You are a paragon of virtue to keep all my flaws covered. Whoops.

 

[HeIsHere]

It's called salvation.

Sanctification cannot be before justification either chronologically or logically.

 

[lrs68]

Regeneration is the simplified version for being saved. It's the final outcome. But Regeneration doesn't include Repentance in Ephesians. According to Paul it's the result of Repentance. So how does Repentance take place unless someone feels like they need to Repent?

 

[Cameron143]

Sanctification cannot be before justification either chronologically or logically.

Then obviously it doesn't.

 

[Magenta]

Here is the list, quite accurate.

• All / World – In many passages, Calvinists interpret all or world not as “every individual without exception,” but as “people from all nations, not just Jews,” or “the world of the elect.”

If you interpret world in every verse to mean everyone then you are under the power and influence of Satan.

 

[Kroogz]

Yes they are using scripture to defend the system, the system came first and then the doublespeak was developed.

Here is the list, quite accurate.

• All / World – In many passages, Calvinists interpret all or world not as “every individual without exception,” but as “people from all nations, not just Jews,” or “the world of the elect.”
• Whosoever – Instead of meaning “anyone at all,” it is taken as “whoever believes,” with the assumption that only those enabled by God’s effectual grace will actually believe.
• Foreknowledge – Rather than God simply knowing future choices, Calvinists interpret this as God’s fore-loving or sovereignly choosing certain people beforehand.
• Predestination – Understood not as a general plan for all who freely choose Christ, but as God’s specific eternal decree of who will be saved (and sometimes who will not).
• Election – Seen as unconditional, based solely on God’s will, rather than conditional on human faith or response.
• Grace – Interpreted as irresistible grace for the elect (effectual calling), not prevenient grace offered to all.
• Faith – Not an act of free human response, but itself a gift granted only to the elect.
• Dead in sin – Taken to mean total spiritual inability to respond to God at all without prior regeneration.
• Regeneration – Understood as occurring before faith (God makes one alive, which causes faith), rather than faith leading to regeneration.
• Atonement – Limited to the elect, not universal in scope, even if sufficient for all (Chat GPT)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

@Rufus Is the gang leader on this. He is like reading the book on reformed theology. Everything he says is written and scripted.

 

[Magenta]

Whosoever – Instead of meaning “anyone at all,” it is taken as “whoever believes,” with the assumption that only those enabled by God’s effectual grace will actually believe.

Scripture says, whosoever believes.

Nobody can believe without being enabled by God, and no one can confess Jesus as Lord except
by the Holy Spirit. Knowledge of God is by personal spiritual revelation which you mock.

 

[Magenta]

Foreknowledge – Rather than God simply knowing future choices,

Foreknowledge of God includes those He foreknew, which is people.

Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.

 

[Kroogz]

If you interpret world in every verse to mean everyone then you are under the power and influence of Satan.

Yeah, Adam didn't affect the world.

Maybe this is why Christ couldn't?

Adam won?

 

[HeIsHere]

Compounding that with this many logical violations makes the argument too incoherent to take remotely seriously.

It is gaslighting, it really is.

 

[Magenta]

Dead in sin – Taken to mean total spiritual inability to respond to God at all without prior regeneration.

More of your denying man's inability.

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.

 

[Magenta]

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

 

[HeIsHere]

Then obviously it doesn't.

Oh right, regeneration does not involve any sanctification, the clean heart is not in any way cleaning or sanctifying!!

 

[Kroogz]

Scripture says, whosoever believes.

Nobody can believe without being enabled by God, and no one can confess Jesus as Lord except
by the Holy Spirit.

Exactly. And you nor anyone else is exempt from this truth.

Stop telling us that you are one of the 'special ones.'

Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

 

[Magenta]

Man is born in transgression and sin (Psalm 51 verse 5, 58 verse 3), dead in transgressions (Ephesians 2 verse 5), his heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), held captive by a love for sin (John 3 verse 19; John 8 verse 34), so that he will not seek God (Romans 3 verses 10-11), because he loves the darkness (John 3 verse 19), and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), nor can he change himself (Jeremiah 13 verse 23). He suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1 verse 18) and continues to willfully live in sin because he is totally depraved; this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14 verse 12); they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1 verse 18), and their mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8 verse 7).

 

[cv5]

When was the last time you saw a reformed/calvie/tulip person even mention The Lord Jesus Christ?
The Lord Jesus Christ seems to not be in their vocabulary.
It's the "natural man." .......That is their focus. They completely overlook what the Lord Jesus Christ DID for the "natural man."

Well, I hear a lot of shrieking about the mass of incurably wicked, utterly depraved, stony hearted, born evil, wretched, devoid of the truth, slaves to sin, puppets of Satan humanity out there.

That list is nowhere near exhaustive BTW.

They sound more scary than scared if you ask me. A couple of posters in particular are epic in their incessant condemnations. Use the search tool and find out for yourself.

Its bizarre and disturbing man, it really is.