Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

Life in His name is eternal life, not regeneration.
Jesus came to give eternal life...John 3:16.
Eternal life is knowing God and Christ...John 17:3.
John recorded what he did that people would believe and have life in His name...John 20:31.
John recorded these things that people might know they have eternal life...1 John 5:13.
Those verses all refer to eternal life; not regeneration.

The problem y'all have is the estate of the natural man. You have to ignore what is true of him to make a volitional choice unencumbered by his nature. And while some try to bypass this by saying God withholds his nature in order to make a choice, the Bible nowhere makes such a statement. Others simply act as though the things written about men aren't true and simply ignore them. God has simply dealt with them once and for all by giving them new hearts and His Spirit so that they love and obey Him. You have people obeying God from a natural estate. That simply isn't possible.

The "natural man" fallacy ALWAYS ends up being the fallback bunker for deterministic Reformed soteriology.

Despite it being the most thoroughly debunked Reformed shibboleth of them all.

 

[cv5]

I've never said belief doesn't precede salvation; only that regeneration precedes faith. An individual is saved when they believe. But it is God who produces faith in an individual as the Spirit of God employs the word of God. Further, in Acts 2:37, we find God giving hearing...when they heard this, circumcising the heart...they were pricked in the heart, which changed their will or volition...what shall we do? All this resulting from the word of God being preached and the Spirit of God using it to produce faith.

Yea @Cameron143 you might want to scroll down a few verses to better understand the flow of events....

Nothing is happening here that even remotely accords with your spooky Reformed theories.

[Act 2:37-38 KJV]
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[studier]

I believe Acts 2:37 reveals/confirms what the Lord Jesus Christ said about the Holy Spirit convicting the world. The unbelieving Jews were pricked in their hearts as Peter was preaching God's Word.

Peter did not pull any punches in his preaching. He flat out told them that Jesus was the Christ ... the Messiah spoken of by Joel, by David, approved of God by wonders and miracles. Peter told them of the resurrection and the ascension ... and he then told them in vs 36 God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

so of course they were cut to the heart ... they were convicted in their hearts ... this is God's Word working in the hearts of the unbelievers ... and to this day God sends faithful believers to preach His Word to the lost, the Holy Spirit convicts people and they either believe or suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

God's Word is the Word of life ... God breathed life into His Holy Word ... that is why it is imperative that we speak God's Word ... not man's word ... or God's Word mixed with man's word.

Only God's Word is life and life-giving and God will only bring increase to the heart of those who believe God's Word.


Proverbs 4:20-23 My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
.

@Cameron143, like many Reformed, thinks the idiom of being stabbed in the heart is circumcision - as he says. So, he has circumcision of heart before belief (circ > what shall we do? > believe). Good luck...

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need. 46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:36-47 NKJ)

What's the order of salvation here?

Do we have to look further into Luke-Acts to see the order of salvation according to Luke or to those he speaks about?

Is v.37 really the circumcision of the heart? It doesn't say it is.

 

[Cameron143]

I believe Acts 2:37 reveals/confirms what the Lord Jesus Christ said about the Holy Spirit convicting the world. The unbelieving Jews were pricked in their hearts as Peter was preaching God's Word.

Peter did not pull any punches in his preaching. He flat out told them that Jesus was the Christ ... the Messiah spoken of by Joel, by David, approved of God by wonders and miracles. Peter told them of the resurrection and the ascension ... and he then told them in vs 36 God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

so of course they were cut to the heart ... they were convicted in their hearts ... this is God's Word working in the hearts of the unbelievers ... and to this day God sends faithful believers to preach His Word to the lost, the Holy Spirit convicts people and they either believe or suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

God's Word is the Word of life ... God breathed life into His Holy Word ... that is why it is imperative that we speak God's Word ... not man's word ... or God's Word mixed with man's word.

Only God's Word is life and life-giving and God will only bring increase to the heart of those who believe God's Word.


Proverbs 4:20-23 My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
.

3,000 were saved. Many many more heard the same message who didn't respond in faith. Why? Because the gospel is only the power of God to those who believe. It was ineffectual to many. And yet, we know Peter's preaching accomplished exactly what God sent His word forth to do. Had God intended 4,000 to be saved, that's exactly what would have happened. The Lord added to the church such as should be saved.

 

[Cameron143]

Yea @Cameron143 you might want to scroll down a few verses to better understand the flow of events....

Nothing is happening here that even remotely accords with your spooky Reformed theories.

[Act 2:37-38 KJV]
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You can deny that God worked upon the mind and hearts of these people to affect their wills if you want, but the verse clearly shows God affecting the volition of those who believed that day. That's the whole point of verse 37. Call it what you will, but to deny that God was active in determining the choices of men is undeniable.

 

[BillyBob]

I think you struck out there little buddy........

Ah, I think that I must disagree with you. Your problem is that anytime the Bible mentions God giving man anything, you go nuts.
That just doesn't go along with your sick FW theology, [that man needs no help, he can do it all]. But the bricks are beginning to fall off the house that you have built!

 

[Rufus]

Naw scripture tells us all to humble ourselves before God and then he shall lift us up .

“Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:8, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:6-7KJV‬‬

We’re meant to hear and believe and act upon his word that’s his gift

James' exhortation is given to believers (Jas 1:2-3). Peter didn't write either of his epistles to the ungodly, God-hating world.

Context matters.

 

[HeIsHere]

Sure, it has to do with deterministic beliefs, which are Calvinistic, which are Reformed, which you've acknowledged you are. And yes, you believe the things you acknowledged, and based on this, yes you claimed the same nonsense about non-Reformed beliefs that your Reformed and admittedly Calvinistic friends here claim constantly. You try to claim honesty by trying to shroud yourself in some self-perceived sense of mystery or uniqueness, but your beliefs are Reformed which are not at all mysterious and very easy to identify.

Wow, this really hit the nail on the head, something I could not quite express but absolutely recognized on my first interaction when I discussed the parable of the sower with him.

 

[Rufus]

The claim is not only absurd but a common misrepresentation of non-deterministic thinking in this forum. Scripture is clear there is a terrible downside for those who die in Adam. They perish apart from Christ. That’s precisely why choosing faith in Christ is necessary. Faith precedes salvation, and God’s people are those who choose to believe (Rom 4; Gal 3)

Well...there you go then... Looks like God is calling you to minister full time to CV5 because he thinks Adam is a true blue spiritual superhero who "sacrificed" himself on the altar of sin because he loved Eve soooo much. I don't see how CV5 could see any "downside" (let alone a "terrible" one) for being in his godly, saintly, faithful, unselfish, altruistic, Superhero.

So...get busy and try to save his soul. You've got your work cut out for you.

 

[Magenta]

W'all don't have a problem with the natural man. Y'all do.

Also, you're trying to tell us what is impossible for God - that God cannot make the unbeliever understand the Truth in order to make him responsible for active receipt or rejection.

Re: the Gospel, among other things, we think highly of God's power He's instilled in His Gospel and in the ability of His Spirit to convict/convince the unbeliever of what he needs to know to choose to believe God or to reject God. We think highly of Jesus' ability to draw all men to Himself.

@reneweddaybyday has covered the 1Cor2-3 Scripture well in this thread more than once. I've covered it also and @reneweddaybyday and I (and others) from what I read are in agreement. I think I've also taken it into some of the Greek wording which gives even more reason to see it as we do.

What a load! Too bad you are so dishonest. I wonder how many times it has been posted that what is impossible
with man is possible with God but of course you lie abut that. I suppose you just can't help being so deceptive.

 

[Rufus]

You can deny that God worked upon the mind and hearts of these people to affect their wills if you want, but the verse clearly shows God affecting the volition of those who believed that day. That's the whole point of verse 37. Call it what you will, but to deny that God was active in determining the choices of men is undeniable.

I wonder why the hearers in Acts 2 weren't just "pricked" in their mighty, powerful and free volition...

 

[cv5]

You can deny that God worked upon the mind and hearts of these people to affect their wills if you want, but the verse clearly shows God affecting the volition of those who believed that day. That's the whole point of verse 37. Call it what you will, but to deny that God was active in ***determining*** the choices of men is undeniable.

Nope. The passages do not support your theory in the slightest.

Contrarily, the text DOES indicate that there were those in the audience who RECEIVED Peters message, then ENTERED into the New Covenant according to their OWN volition, that which every man possesses.

There is a flow that accords with all other similar instances in Scripture.

 

[Magenta]

The claim is not only absurd but a common misrepresentation of non-deterministic thinking in this forum.

Fits you to a T with how majorly you misrepresent what you call deterministic thinking.

Your repeated lack of honesty in that regard, and how often you give a false or misleading account
of the nature of sch thinking, shows such a willingness to deceive on your part it is obscene.

It is God Who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose. Apart from Me you can do nothing. No word from God will ever fail. “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus said, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

 

[Magenta]

W'all don't have a problem with the natural man. Y'all do.

Get with the program, mister deceiver. God has a problem with the natural man and those you oppose
affirm what God and Scriptures say about him while the free willers are largely Pelagian heretics
who disregard much of what is said, ascribing qualities, characteristics, and abilities to him that
only the spiritual man is in possession of. Your self-exalting pretenses extend so very far into
your thinking and theology they prevent you from seeing anything clearly.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18

 

[HeIsHere]

Yea @Cameron143 you might want to scroll down a few verses to better understand the flow of events....

Nothing is happening here that even remotely accords with your spooky Reformed theories.

[Act 2:37-38 KJV]
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Again it does not state "spiritually" pricked in their heart.

There is nothing unusual about people being "cut to the heart" when they hear something, people do have a conscience at work in them, but Calvinists make everything about determinism and regeneration before faith/belief.

 

[Rufus]

It actually is not,
The construction uses a fixed neuter singular pronoun (that) which refers neither to faith, which is feminine in Greek, nor to any immediate word which follows.
As some whose first language is a gendered language I know how this works.

Faith is not an infused or transmitted substance.
The instrument is faith, the agent is God.
His Gift is salvation by His grace.

Try again.

Sure about that?

First of all, faith comes only through Christ (Act 3:16; 2Cor 3:4); faith is a result of God's grace (Act 18:27); God purifies His people's hearts by his gift of faith (Act 15:9); grace, faith and love are found only in Christ (1Tim 1:14); faith is given to God's chosen people (Rom 12:3); saints are protected by the power of God through faith (1Pet 1:3-5); God's power has granted his elect all things (including faith!) pertaining to life and godliness (2Pet 1:3-4); everything a saint has been given to him by God (1Cor 4:7); because of all these things, all saints are in Christ strictly by God's doing (1Cor 1:30-31).

You might wanna spend more time prayerfully in the Word since you seem to know so little...

 

[rogerg]

Fits you to a T with how majorly you misrepresent what you call deterministic thinking.

Your repeated lack of honesty in that regard, and how often you give a false or misleading account
of the nature of sch thinking, shows such a willingness to deceive on your part it is obscene.

It is God Who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose. Apart from Me you can do nothing. No word from God will ever fail. “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus said, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

He(?) completely ignored/discarded 1 Co 2 and superimposed on it his own conclusions.

 

[Rufus]

No they do not. You made that up. Go and read Paul again, if you ever have to begin with. Romans 7.

What Studier wrote is likely the foundational presupposition/assumption to their false gospel. The commands in the bible are given for at least these three reasons: To reveal God's righteous, holy and good character, to reveal His supreme power and authority over all creation, and to reveal man's duty to his Creator. As showed yesterday, God gave the Law to Israel with the expectation of obedience to all His commandments always. Yet...for some strange reason Israel seemed to have missed the mark far and wide here and there...

 

[cv5]

Again it does not state "spiritually" pricked in their heart.

There is nothing unusual about people being "cut to the heart" when they hear something, people do have a conscience at work in them, but Calvinists make everything about determinism and regeneration before faith/belief.

Neither does the text say that anybody was kidnapped against their will or lobotomized against their will.
Or that they entered the covenant bound and gagged with the point of a spear in their back.

The Reformed super-deterministic model of individual salvation is nothing more than myth and is wholly and totally bogus.

 

[lrs68]

I am an agnostic. However, if you or anyone else can give me a proof of God's existence, then I will no longer be an agnostic. So where is the proof ?

Have you ever witnessed or experienced some type of strange event that is impossible to reason outside of using the provocations [fluke, unexplainable, miracle]?

I speak of an event or experience that no human being possibly could change the circumstances or outcome or be the reason for why you survived. I am talking about something that to this very day you cannot explain or reason to the how and why's because the literal impossible happened and there's no human understanding to define and explain it.